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Author Topic: HMS Agincourt build project  (Read 82897 times)

unbuiltnautilus

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2017, 12:42:36 PM »

There is story here of course.  I used to have a much larger car.  Hyundai Lantra saloon.  17 years old, 25 mpg, high tax and insurance, plus increasing repair costs to keep getting it through the MOT.  However, no seats folded down and despite a fair sized boot it did not lend itself to being used as a van.

So, when I retired at 67 I invested in a nice little Agila. 1 Litre, £10 tax, cheap insurance and 50 mpg. The width across the back seats was only two inches less than the Lantra.  It should last me the rest of my driving years. 

The car is not the issue.  I simply cannot manhandle a heavy 2.2 metre boat, either from the house to the car, or from the car to the lakeside, especially on my own.

The other issue is weight.  Lifting a 64 lbf ship is out of the question, as is kneeling by the waters edge (at my age and infirmity).  I have already stated that the car park at our lake will not allow trailers, and there is a 2 metre height restriction bar at the car park entrance - so no top box, even if I could heave the boat up there.

The object of this project is to be able to own and sail a mega sized dreadnaught.  I believe it is possible, but only by using ingenuity and improvisation.


Ingenuity and improvisation AND quotes from JAWS...you are going to the top of my Christmas list.....however, with that photo of the hull, you are going to need something in the foreground for scale though..................... %)
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2017, 01:24:56 PM »


Ingenuity and improvisation AND quotes from JAWS...you are going to the top of my Christmas list.....however, with that photo of the hull, you are going to need something in the foreground for scale though..................... %)

Tee Hee Unbuiltnautilus    {-)  I could hang my little HMS Royal Marine armed trawler on davits?

Here is one that Ron K built earlier.  I doubt if mine will look a tenth as good as his, but I will do my best.



Now, to get really silly.  Also seen at Wicksteed on Sunday was Geoff's amazing gun fire system on his HMS Iron Duke.  We did have a long chat about how it worked. 



Would it be going totally O.T.T. to not only have the Arduino constant bearing turret rotation system on board, but to get at least one gun in each of the 3 groups to blast smoke as well?  Getting all seven turrets firing would involve far too many big SLA batteries. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

It will be a few weeks until I can go up to Deans to cut the hull in half so I can bring it home.  I intend getting a photo of the hull on top of my car first as a size comparison.

In the mean time I am just dreaming and planning  %%
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2017, 08:45:09 PM »

Looking at the pictures of Geoff's turret innards, the thermistor and plumbing should fit into a slightly smaller 12 inch turret and still provide room for insulation. As Geoff only fitted one barrel of each turret with a smoke system you will be Ok in the power department and would not need to worry about the other seven barrels.

If you wanted to test the systems without comitting to all seven turrets, is it worth pushing ahead with your Monitor and then develop the systems on the one turret to confirm that smoke and control can be fitted in the one turret on a floating hull in 'combat' conditons?? You could also test out water ballasting ideas as well given the monitor's immense bouancy and stability.

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2017, 11:07:51 AM »

A short interlude whilst I wait to go to Peterborough for hull cutting.
In the mean time, why this will not be a quick build (please have patience), and deciding which configuration to build Agincourt to -  As built, or final version.

 Expect a longish build time
There are good reasons why I am rarely able to build a new design in 3 months, unless it is a kit.   I am 71 this month, so I have to ration out my building expenditure from my two pensions – whilst having to pay the bills as well.  Buying an ultra economic ECO car does mean I can spend a bit more on boats rather than wasting it on big car running expenses.

The other reason is that I don’t like to cut corners on cheapo parts.  I want four nice Raboesch watertight propshafts with bearings and seals, decent quality brass props, Action ESC’s and mixer, reliable batteries and torquey motors etc.  I know the fittings list will be very extensive.  Like the ambitious nut I am I aim to fit the full 7 turret Arduino system, plus Geoff’s gun smoke conversion if possible.

Having costed it all I need to budget that out over 8 to 10 months.  Realistically I could spend a month laying 170 metres of 3 mm deck planking, and another month drilling and soldering 5 metres of stanchions.  Unfortunately I have a passion for detailing, which all takes further time and materials.


Which Configuration?
As built, HMS Agincourt (or Rio de Janeiro, or Sultan Osman 1 Evvel).  The ship was originally built for Brazil but when their economy collapsed and they could not cancel the order they sold it to Turkey. It is moot whether the Admiralty knew of alliance discussions between Turkey and Germany, but when WW1 broke out the ship had just left the shipyard for sea trials.  Whatever, it is known that that our government kept her at sea for quite a while, while Turkey had their crew waiting to take possession.
Churchill ordered that the Turkish crew were to be denied boarding, by force if necessary.  Britain took over the ship and renamed it HMS Agincourt.

Britain decided to bring her in for modifications.  Fearing that damage to the flying decks could put the centre pair of turrets out of action these were removed, as was the aft tripod mast, the anti-torpedo nets, and the top masts greatly reduced.  Turkish toilet facilities were changed to Navy standards.  However, many of the names plates for machinery remained in Turkish.

My dilemma was whether to build the model “as built” or after the modifications.  Technically she was still the property of Armstrong until after her trials and acceptance by the Navy.  However, I do like the flying decks, torpedo nets and lofty topmasts.

As Built



As in 1918


One significant problem as a model is that the seven large ships boats previously carried on the flying decks ended up being stowed around the centre turrets, making them effectively inoperable without lowering them all over the side.  Getting to action stations must have taken ages.  Were they towed behind?  No idea.

Ships Boats



So, in the interests of making a handsome looking model, and being able to train and fire all 12 inch guns, I have settled on the original configuration, as per Ron K's prototype, even though technically she may never have flown the White Ensign until after the modifications.

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2017, 02:14:26 PM »

My belief is that many of the Grand Fleet Battleships unshipped their boats before putting out to sea dependent on the layout. Iron Duke has boats either side of the second funnel on davits and there is no way Q turret could fire without damaging them. Superfluous boats were almost certainly tied to the buoys and collected on return as otherwise you are only taking "splinters" to a sea battle!


A lot of the German Battleships were similar and their boats would have been destroyed by gun blast the moment they opened fire so unless they liked replacing boats they would also have unshipped them.


Big ships often had lots of boats as they anchored in the big harbours - crew transfers and stores going on all the time, a constant replenishment process so you can model them with or without boats.


Cheers


Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2017, 02:31:07 PM »

Geoff:  That sounds very likely, although I have never read anything about this.  Towing around ten boats behind at 21 kts in any kind of sea would have them smashing together or capsizing.  Maybe that's why Agincourt had her flying bridges removed, as if the boats were removed before putting out to sea any shell damage to the flying bridges could have disabled the turrets underneath.  Some of them looked quite large, more like armed picket boats.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2017, 02:34:56 PM »

The standard steam picket boat would have been 50 feet long! Scale is deceptive!

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2017, 03:32:29 PM »

On Ron K's prototype there are two quite large steam boats with guns on the forward half of the flying deck.
The after half has five boats, including another armed steam launch.



Each of the two flying decks measures 63 feet on the plans, so quite large boats.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2017, 03:35:06 PM »

I've seen reports that the flying decks aren't solid but are a series of spaced girders - I'll try to check and see if I have any pictures of Agincourt - it may be in the book "The Big Battleship"?

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2017, 03:39:14 PM »

I have that on order Geoff.  Sounds a good book  :-))
Any and all information welcome
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2017, 10:21:36 PM »

I would go for her in her wartime guise Bob. It will benefit you in having less to build, and fewer boats which can take ages to build.

Ommitting the nets will also  make her an easier model to transport and dock as will having the shorter masts.

The costs will be reduced to an extent as well providing budget for more important things such as telemetry and thermistors etc.

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2017, 10:21:02 AM »

The logic in your reply is very sound ballastanksian.
However, I love detailing and the original configuration looks delicious  O0
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2017, 11:01:22 AM »

I have made up a measuring jig, and bought some Dremel diamond-dust cutting wheels.  I can’t wait until I can go up to Peterborough for the ceremonial hull cutting, and bring her home.  Once she is on my slipway I will be changing my Avatar.

Just finished reading The Big Battleship by Richard Hough.  Fascinating insights on the ship’s story.   For instance the Designer, Sir Eustace Tennyson d'Eyncourt, as a child was a model boat enthusiast.  Enthralled by big warships even then he built models of them to sail on a nearby lake.

In the mean time I have a flag quandary

I have decided to build Agincourt as built, before the modifications the Admiralty carried out before she joined the Fleet at Scapa.  Brazil had sold the ship to Turkey and the Turkish crew were en route to take her over when the war broke out.  Completion ‘seemed’ endlessly delayed despite increasing staff and working 24/7.
The ship finally left Armstrong’s shipyard to commence sea trials crewed by dockyard personnel plus Turkish workers/trainees.  She was still missing two 12 inch guns and all ammunition. The Admiralty had got wind of Turkey’s impending treaty with Germany so ordered her to stay at sea until further notice.  From the Tyne to Devonport, then back to Armstrong’s via speed trials north of the Tyne.  Churchill issued instructions that the Turkish crew newly arrived were to be prevented from going aboard, by force if necessary.
Interestingly, Armstrong's knew what was impending as thousands of Portuguese tally plates on machinery being replaced for Turkish ones were engraved in English on their reverse sides.

Here is the dilemma.  With no RN personnel on board for Trials she should only have flown the Red Ensign at sea.  When Britain eventually took over the ship, still moored at Armstrong’s, the flying bridges and torpedo nets were immediately removed and Turkish style toilets replaced with Navy style ones – before setting sail for Scapa.

I may well get flak from rivet counters, but I will be flying a large White Ensign from a gaff on the main mast.

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2017, 05:24:02 PM »

It's your model so it's your rules Bob based on research and historical precedent. Likewise, I would only say it was a quandry if you did not have sufficient information to make the informed decision that you have come to. History has dictated that, because of certain situations at certain times based upon your building decisions, it has to be a certain way.

One question I have is: What colour would she have been completed in? She was ordered by Brazil and was then sold to Turkey. Did the UK ship builders say:

'Our warships are built in so and so colour unless otherwise specified by the customer?

Or:

'You can have your warship in any shade of grey you like as long as it is that which we have as our standard warship colour'?

Either are logical.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2017, 07:20:24 PM »


One question I have is: What colour would she have been completed in? She was ordered by Brazil and was then sold to Turkey.


Quite probably, as you say, standard battleship grey, U.O.S. on the contract.
She was not repainted when taken over so must have been Standard Admiralty Hobson's Choice grey.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2017, 01:13:29 PM »

I think Humbrol Slate Grey wouldn't be far of the mark. In terms of solid/open flying decks. I have found in my collection conflicting plans for Colossus and Neptune. One set shows a solid deck and the other shows the turrets underneath so an open deck with walkways. Hmm, not very helpful there!


Cheers


Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2017, 03:14:57 PM »

A bit darker than ww2 grey.  Colossus had 'boat decks', having the after one removed around 1915.  Neptune's are referred to as 'boat girders'.  I am going with 'decks' and leaving them in.  Probably light plating over only.
I know they were taken off before joining the fleet, but I like them.

PS:  Going up to Dean's this weekend.  I can't wait  O0
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project - Cutting day
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2017, 03:06:25 PM »

Two (m) into one will go

The day finally arrived for me to go up to Dean’s for some serious hull cutting.
First, a picture showing quite clearly this 7 ft hull was never going to fit into my little car as it is.



Equipped with my faithful Rotacraft drill fitted with Dremel diamond-dust cutting disks and my improvised measuring jig the hull was marked out over masking tape to protect the surface.   

This is how to fit it into my car !

Yep!  That fits nicely.  Two into one does go.



I had spent the week preparing my tiny workshop for the biggest build imaginable.  Quite a bit of reorganisation, clearing out unnecessary gear and adding additional storage.  The workbench is not much longer than one hull-half at a time, so I built a raised platform 1.8 m long.  Enough to align the two halves accurately, albeit with 200 mm over at each end. 



Now that is a workable slipway.   You can just see the cut line,  Came out quite nicely, although it looks more like a canoe !
I wonder if Armstrong’s Shipyard had to extend their slipway before building this leviathan ? 
Each time I need to refer to the plans it may mean clearing the living room.

Next steps will take time.  I need to source various plywood thicknesses in sizes I can get in my car.  Unfortunately most come in huge sheets.  I may have to make a list and have manageable sections cut.  Then will come sourcing the structural gauge stainless sliding telescopic tubes, 1.000 inch & 1.125 inch diameters.

I feel quite chuffed  O0  This huge seven turret Dreadnaught is finally underway  :-))

_________________________________________________________________


Just to give you a sense of scale here, inside is my last build HMS Royal Marine, also 1/96 scale.


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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2017, 07:03:50 PM »

That last picture reminds me of the image of two small gun monitors beng built on the inner skin of a cancelled cruise liner hull that is in the Buxton book.

I am pleased that surgery went to plan, and very cleanly too by the look of things.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2017, 07:10:51 PM »


That's one impressive hull Bob, regarding the plywood and timber it may be worth giving   www.slecuk.com a try,  they have excellent quality wood profiles and ply, they supply cut ply up to a thickness of 12mm on their online shop and post up to 20kg per posting, if you want thicker ply you can call them direct on Orderline: 01953 885279 for bulk purchases,  I have used them a few times and found their service and prices really good. the good thing is you can get all the bits of ply to the size you want without having to buy 8' x 4' sheets,
hope it's of some help.

Joe
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2017, 08:27:19 PM »

Congrats Bob, I guess you found out how tough cutting a GRP hull can be like I did but you've done an excellent separation job. Can't wait to see your next move. :-))
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2017, 08:39:10 PM »

Thank you chaps.  That wood company looks very good on prices for modelling sized timber and ply.  It's mainly the bulkheads, supports and deck bases.  DIY store sheet sizes are OK for house builders, but .... 
Thank you for the link.

I have found a source for the 16 swg walled telescopic stainless tubes.  www.metals4u.co.uk   Not cheap, but they need to be both structurally strong and able to take water.  I may fit teak dowel rods inside the removable tubes for additional reinforcing.

I would recommend the Dremel SC545 cutting discs, especialy with 'RAF quality' fibreglass.  Very hard and tough.  Ron Dean layed up extra thicknesses around the centre section.  Using masking tape helped keep the cut clean and avoided risk of the disc skittering across the finish.  Some careful linishing on a large board with wet & dry paper glued to it for a final tidy.  However, it came out better than I expected.  Obviously lightly cutting part way through, then leaving the two edges and curve-corners till last to keep it from snapping under the weight.
Nick:  I took notes from your methodology for Invincible, but used diamond-dust wheels instead of carbide.

I have already just sat here looking at it for hours, but nothing else is going to get done in this shipyard until I get the build underway.  The "elephant in the room" is going to ensure I don't get distracted. 
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2017, 10:07:10 PM »

Very good job there Bob and thank you for posting the pics, especially that last one, gives a good idea of dimensions. :o

...oh, and your new Avatar is most appropriate. :-))

Regards,

Ray.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2017, 10:44:54 PM »

A very nice clean job Bob and a tribute to Mr Dean. It's going to be a cracker.
I can certainly agree with Joe about SLEC. I collected wood from them not so long ago and they were very friendly and efficient.
Cheers

Tony
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2017, 09:34:11 PM »

On order

Laser Birch ply on order from www.selecuk.co.uk.    Thank you Joe for the link.
Using 9 mm for secondary bulkheads, doubling up to 18 mm for the hull interfaces.
Six support bulkheads spaced at approx. 250 mm, extending for one metre total across the two hull halves.

Six metres of 1/16” wall thickness stainless steel telescopic tubing ordered from www.metals4u.co.uk, that is 3 m each of one inch and 7/8 inch o/d.  I settled for these sizes as it is easier to source hardwood dowel of 3/4 inch dia to reinforce the inner tube.  The tubing came to £80 but with free delivery that really helps.  They need to support the weight, provide stiffness, and be water friendly.

Linishing.



To finish off the cut edges on the hull halves I made up a ply board with medium wet & dry paper glued to it, held down with weighted boards whilst the glue set.  Applying water to the flat gritty surface I carefully moved the cut face in a gentle circular motion.  It didn’t need much, but now I have perfect join edges to align with the 18 mm hull joint bulkheads.  The grit board will come in handy I know.

The critical part of this will be to get everything to line up accurately, allowing for profile changes along the inner hull over a total distance of one metre.   ie:  Half a metre into each half hull, with the removable tubes one metre long.

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