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Author Topic: HMS Agincourt build project  (Read 89021 times)

C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #650 on: April 06, 2019, 12:04:00 PM »

I have no knowledge of big navy guns firing.

If all 7 guns on HMS Agincourt where fired at the "same time" presumably they would be spaced out over a short timeframe?

Something like  - https://soundcloud.com/user-477761400/7guns2

Any feedback would be much appreciated

Regards

C-3PO
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #651 on: April 06, 2019, 12:58:59 PM »

As far as I know Agincourt had not yet had her Dreyfus Fire Control system fitted, even by Jutland.
The "Fire" command was manually sent to each turret simultaneously, but it required someone in the turret watching for it to then operate the Fire mechanism.  I would guess there could be up to two seconds delay before the guns went off.  Action / reaction time.  It would almost certainly not have been exactly simultaneous across all seven turrets, although a well drilled crew could get fairly close to optimum including reaction time.

Not very definitive I am afraid.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #652 on: April 06, 2019, 01:03:07 PM »

It is all literally a moving feast!

Agincourt is recorded as firing 14 gun broadsides at Jutland just to show it could be done! Observers said it looked as if the ship had blown up.

However I am reading John Brooks' account of the Battle of Jutland at the moment and there is a lot of interesting and technical stuff including gunnery operation procedures.

Gunnery control evolved throughout WW1 and different ships were fitted with different marks of control systems at any given time. Under full director control the gunnery officer could pull a trigger to fire as many guns as he chose simultaneously, salvoes or broadsides etc. But the less automated systems fitted in many ships relied upon individual turrets 'laying' their guns by following pointers for direction and elevation from the central transmitting station, waiting for the fire gong and then firing as their sights 'came on' with the roll of the ship which would give the effect of 'ripple' firing within a couple of seconds or so. I think the Germans had something very similar.

Personally for modelling visual effect I think that a rapid ripple of fire would look most effective but you have the choice!

At Jutland, Agincourt was one of two British dreadnoughts not to have been fitted with a director so presumably placed more reliance on individual turret gunlayers.

It is a complicated subject and more technical than you might think but for modelling purposes it probably doesn't matter much whether you go for simultaneous or ripple firing. Most people won't notice, they will be too impressed with the fact that the model fires at all!

Colin
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #653 on: April 06, 2019, 01:23:05 PM »

Most people won't notice, they will be too impressed with the fact that the model fires at all!
Colin

Thanks Colin - and if it all goes to plan observers will feel Bob's HMS Agincourt firing - literally!

C-3PO
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #654 on: April 06, 2019, 01:44:54 PM »

Thanks Colin - and if it all goes to plan observers will feel Bob's HMS Agincourt firing - literally!

C-3PO

If everyone suddenly jumps, saying "What the **** was that !!! "then objective achieved.   %%

There may even be a slight pause between the smoke and flash to when the sound reaches observers.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #655 on: April 06, 2019, 02:06:38 PM »

Quote
If everyone suddenly jumps, saying "What the **** was that !!! "then objective achieved.

Just as long as it's due to the audio effects and not the pain of pellets penetrating the skin...

Colin
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #656 on: April 08, 2019, 01:52:00 PM »

For anyone who is particulary interested there is a very good book "Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland". Its a thesis and quite technical but its a very interesting book as it explains in great detail the enormous practical difficulties that were encountered to produce a working system including the physical manufacture of very expensive and precise equipment.


It is not necessarily realised that any fire control solution is made up of many independent elements any one of which is open to error. The main issues were range and deflection and rate of change or range:


Range is obvious but how do you measure it in a few seconds at an indistinct target and what is the error rate. Ships would typically use multiple rangefinders and use an aggregate number then rely on observation for the fall of shot and correct up, down, left, right.


Deflection - means the rate of aim ahead as at long range shells would take 30 to 60 seconds to arive so you don't aim at the target but where you calculate it will be in a future time.


There is also the rate of change of range to be calculated - Evershed equipment was used - basically how fast is the enemy closing or retreating.




It also debunks the oft repeated wisdom that the Pollen equipment was much better than the Dreyer equipment. There were in fact many similarities and the thresis brioadley comes ouy in favoutr of the Dreyer system.


Director control was generally the better system but independent controll was excellent too and could be very effective in the right circumstances so most ships actually used a combination of both systems dependent on operational circumstances of the action as to which was best.


Independent fire could give a higher rate of fire than director control under cirtain circumstances but with director gear all guns were fired at exactly the same time to minimise individual errors from the gunlayers. Continuious aim had been developed to a high level of sophistication such that big guns gould be "fixed" on the target irrespective of the roll, pitch and yaw rates.


Agincourt would and did fire full 14 gun salvo's at Jutland. References to ripple firing really applies to second ww2 triple turrets where there was a fraction of a second delay as the barrels were too close together such as the flight of one shell could affect its neighbour. Otherwise riffle firing only spreads the salvo.


Typically a five turret ship would fire 50% at a time. Reloading took about 30 seconds (2 rounds a minuite per gun) so if you fire a full broadside you can't fire again for 30 seconds but if you fire half broadsides you can fire every 15 seconds.


We also need to consider the light and visibility were key ingredients and these are very variable depending on where the sun is so sometimes you can see the enemy but they can't see you and vice versa.


Its an enormously complex area - for example how to you move a 300 ton turret one half of one degree without overshooting - again director fire put all turrets onto the same target which otherwise in the smoke and confusion of battle is not certain.


Apparently gunnery drill aimed to straddle a ship rather than hit it - sounds odd but at 15,000 yards if you fire five guns and see two splashes short chances are the rest hit or went over the problem is you can't see the "overs" due to smoke gunfire and the splashes of the shorts - a 12" gun makes a 200 foort splash!


I find it a fascinating subject but sometimes you need to be a university professor to understand the maths and dynamics.


Cheers


Geoff






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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #657 on: April 08, 2019, 04:26:42 PM »

A capital ship at 15000 yards is about half the size of a 5p piece held at arm's length. In the twenty seconds or so for a shell to travel that distance, the ship moves around about one hull-length.

Factor in a rolling and pitching platform, smoke, atmospheric clarity (or the lack of it), optical estimates of range, bearing and speed...it's maybe no wonder "Agincourt fired 144 twelve-inch shells and 111 six-inch shells during the battle [of Jutland], although she is not known to have hit anything."

Andy
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #658 on: April 08, 2019, 05:14:39 PM »

In this case all we are "firing" is bursts of evaporated fog fluid and flashing LED's.  The problem to solve is approximately what is the average time dispersal of seven turrets each receiving a command to fire and the collective effect of the guns going off when independently activated from inside each turret.

Remember that no firing control table was fitted to HMS Agincourt.  As Geoff so eloquently described the collation of many items of data was tough enough to achieve with such as system, without it the computation problem was even harder.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #659 on: April 08, 2019, 09:07:03 PM »


Dr Ian's advice is to concentrate on getting twelve guns to fire in as visually effective way as vaporised fluid will allow and have fun sailing and firing at the enemy. By rights, Bob should be controlling all seven turrets independently, but that is impractical, so the Arduino system will make the gunnery control more effective than it was on Agincourt in real life!


Even without turrets or superstructure Agincourt looked pretty damn good on the water last year and so what ever level of control you get Bob and Chris, it will be cutting edge  :-))
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #660 on: April 08, 2019, 10:57:59 PM »

I have just donated bodily parts to RS components in exchange for a replacement soldering station.

I noticed last night that the relay on the control board for turret number one was not switching off - so I decided to investigate and eventually decided to pull it's power supply plug which with no surprise powered it down. When I reconnected it I stupidly make a mistake with the little power plug and sent 12v directly to the Arduino's heart which even though no blue smoke it decided it was going to throw it's toys out of the pram.

There were 7 turret control boards in existence - 3 installed into Bob's HMS Agincourt last year and 4 left with me so I could finish writing the code.

We need to install these shortly into HMS Agincourt but I now find myself one short so mass production will shortly start to make another batch to ensure HMS Agincourt can do us proud.

I started this process only to give up when my current soldering station gave up. - They say things come in three's - I am a little uncomfortable as to what's next...

Dr Ian - 12 months down the road and more knowledge under my belt, whilst not ready to rock and roll, Bob could indeed control independently each turret with a single finger!!!

PS Who's Chris :)

Regards

C-3PO _._
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #661 on: April 08, 2019, 11:02:30 PM »

I forget names readily and got it into my head that you were Chris! Sorry  :((
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #662 on: April 08, 2019, 11:05:52 PM »

That's ok Dave
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #663 on: April 09, 2019, 08:58:31 AM »

 Oh dear C-3PO  {:-{
This project is becoming as protracted and apparently complex as building the LIGO interferometer that recently discovered gravity waves.  I totally admire, and understand, your persistence in pursuing this goal.  I have no doubt you will succeed  :-))

The real problem could come after people see it all working at Wicksteed Park, and want such a system on board their own turreted warship.  You could get inundated with requests.  I only hope that my mechanical aspects of the turret movements are up to the job.  Even on a vessel of these dimensions its all a very close fit.
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #664 on: April 09, 2019, 09:41:34 AM »

Hi Bob,

For me it’s been a very interesting project as it has presented me with many technical software challenges which are a bit like an assault course – you need to solve one before you can progress to the next. Some of these can take days or weeks to resolve. Attacking the problem with as much creativity and logic and you can muster is for me very stimulating and satisfying.

I am a firm believer that to learn something like Arduino coding you need a “real world” task that you want to solve, something real on your work bench that you can touch and feel and throw across the room when it doesn’t work – it certainly stimulates the grey cells as you turn a problem over in your head.

Reading books or watching online video whilst these are great learning resources – nothing beats getting your hands dirty.

Under the hood of the project there is some really clever stuff, individual aspects not unique and done by others before but perhaps unique when bolted together as I have

And I have a solution for post Wicksteed Park requests - https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,61665.msg661179.html#msg661179
C-3PO

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #665 on: April 09, 2019, 01:46:33 PM »

Curiously with ID I operate all the "fire" servo's at the same time albeit A&B and then Q,X & Y or on different channels but in video footage despite Q,X & Y being operated at the sme time there is a daisy chain effect and they fire in that order with a tiny gap between each one. Its only really visible on video. I suspect the issue is that I'm controlling three servo's using "Y" leads but I assumed the signal would be recieved at the same time! Strange.


Geoff
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #666 on: April 09, 2019, 04:00:32 PM »

Hi Geoff,

I trust you will be at Wicksteed Park this year with ID?

It's all interesting stuff. One of the problems of living a 100 miles or so from Bob is that I am working in the dark some of the time not having access to the boat itself.

I have made things fully configurable so assuming the turret is in  a free to fire zone when the "fire" switch is pressed the following settings are used (they can be amended/tweeked)

There is a time delay between the LED being triggered and the servo pump being operated

There is a ten row x seven column lookup table of timings for individual 'turret' firing timings- each time the fire command is issued a random selection of the 10 sequences is chosen and used

There is a time delay setting for the individual gun turret audio track to be played

I think you could spend hours refining this ....

C-3PO
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #667 on: April 09, 2019, 04:54:51 PM »

I love the concept of your randomly selected 10 x 7 lookup table, as this closely replicates the slightly variable time delays in each turret between command receipt and action instigated.  A turret commanders reaction time could vary at each broadside.  It also avoids any visible repletion sequences.

A small time delay will also occur between the almost instant flash with smoke and the sound effect reaching an observer on shore.  The flash being effectively instant, with the ship at a scale half kilometre offshore the sound could take roughly 1.5 seconds.
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #668 on: April 10, 2019, 04:41:57 PM »

So the universe has proven the rule holds true - bad things come in threes

Got back from the kennels this afternoon with my 2 dogs and my computer would not wake up.

After about an hour of increased heart rate I eventually tracked down that the graphics card has died - bad thing number three!!!

C-3PO
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #669 on: April 11, 2019, 09:29:00 AM »

At least its not a part for a nabubian royal cruiser  ok2 %)  (for those wondering if I have lost the plot - look under C-3PO's graphic on the left)
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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #670 on: May 16, 2019, 09:22:45 PM »

HMS AGINCOURT

First fire in anger - one giant step forward - still some small ones to be taken - Well done Bob

https://youtu.be/nqpJotasUKA




C-3PO
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #671 on: May 16, 2019, 09:44:35 PM »

Looks brilliant, especially in slow motion. When all seven turrets are operational it’ll look unbelievable.
I’ll have to get a move on with my turrets, I’m so far behind!
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #672 on: May 16, 2019, 10:43:37 PM »

Many thanks C-3PO.   An enjoyable (but long) day up near Kettering.
With great appreciation for all your valued assistance on this long project.

We finally have all Arduino boxes installed.  Today was mainly fitting and wiring up the aft half of the hull.
A few issues still to resolve.  A couple of turrets sticking on rotation, partly due to end of servo connector falling right where it is most likely to jam turret.  I had intended to add some photos of the neat new wiring methods, but SmugMug suddenly no longer supports Microsoft Explorer, and Chrome refuses to access SmugMug.

At least you can see from C-3PO's video the gunfire effect is totally awesome   O0
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #673 on: May 17, 2019, 08:28:58 AM »

Finally got Chrome to access the photo site.  IMHO Chrome is naff and cack handed compared with IE10.

Anyway, some photos:

First is preparatory work on updating the front end.  Fitting new board mounting arrangement and tidying the wiring.



Next is work yesterday by C-3PO mounting and wiring boards into the aft end using the new box mountings.  As you can see space is very tight despite the size of the hull.



Uploaded software updates to the previously fitted boards.  This is the first time that all boards have been fitted.  Next up was a test firing of a gun in his garden, to test and validate the software for thermistor control and servo-pump operation.  As you can see from his video from yesterday - highly effective  :-))

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C-3PO

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #674 on: May 17, 2019, 09:34:55 AM »

Lots of lessons  learnt...

And apologies to Geoff for not crediting him in the original post as the gun smoke creation technology in the video is entirely his creation as he used on his Iron Duke.

The TARGET system is simply controlling the fog fluid servo pump :)

C-3PO


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