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Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 28289 times)

raflaunches

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HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« on: June 01, 2017, 11:02:07 AM »

Hi everyone


Let me start at the beginning...
Last year at the International Model Boat Show at Warwick the WPMBC stand had a collection of vessels from the Battle of Jutland on display but alas no battlecruisers. On the Coventry MBC stand was a lovely rendition of HMS Invincible in 1/192 scale and little wheels starting turning in my head. With my Dean's Marine HMS Dreadnought almost complete in 1/96 scale and I was looking for a new challenge I fetched out my ruler and started measuring the respective hulls. As it turns out the hulls were almost identical in shape apart from the overall length and the built-up hull sides. I soon realised that I could use a 1/96 scale Dreadnought GRP hull from Ron Dean as a basis of a conversion- this happens a lot in the plastic model aircraft world- but I would need to cut the hull in half and extend by a full five inches! In December I bought a hull from Ron at the Dean's Marine Christmas Open Weekend and was immediately caught/questioned by certain Mayhemers what I was up to, partially because they knew that I already had a Dreadnought! At the same time I bought two different sets of GRP turrets (a mix of Dreadnought and the newer Bellerphron versions) and some vacforms sheets.
Whilst I was working out how I was going to extend the hull I was contacted by Ron Dean who was also intrigued by my project and offered to make the extension piece for me from GRP. So in February I paid a visit to Ron and collected the 6-inch extension piece (I asked for extra length to allow for adjustment) in return for a little present from myself. A week later I was deployed to Cyprus and the project was planned re-adjusted and re-planned for 10 weeks and yesterday the fruition of my plans came together...


So the last time I saw the Dreadnought hull in one piece.


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I marked out carefully in pencil after measuring many, many times.

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Then this happened! %%
I used a dremel with a rotary saw fitting to carefully cut the hull in half. A testament to the quality of the GRP hull I went through three blades to get through the hull!!!


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This image was included but we suddenly realised how in-appropriate it was yesterday. <:( (101 years since 31/05/1916)

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The extension piece was measured to five inches long cutting off the excess using the same dremel fitting. My plan came from the old Matchbox 1/72 scale Flower-class HMCS Snowberry kit. Using a seven inch long piece of 1/32" marine ply cut against the grain to allow the bending seen in these pictures to create a scarf joint.

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With the two hull half's separated I used two steel rules to create the five inch space required to slide the extension piece in place.

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The extension piece was slid in place...
This was the testing phase to see the best fit, whilst not 100% perfect due to differing GRP thicknesses I managed to get a decent fit which as expected requires filler to blend the pieces together but most of the hull detail on the original hull will be removed for the new layout, I only kept the detail to line everything up when I prepare for attaching the three pieces together.

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Nick B

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warspite

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2017, 02:00:23 PM »

clearly the outside 2.5" either side of the cut is exactly the same as each 2.5" of the extension piece, so the unknown profile is the inside, as you say the Extension piece is thicker, so making the outside flush is more important as this should match the hull, bar the slight inconsistency as the hull curves, the scarf piece although is good as a strengthener, its going to pull your hull in at their joints, both sides of the join needed to be identical in thickness, something you could have achieved by packing out the hull side till it matched the extension piece thickness, did you account for that?
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2017, 03:35:14 PM »

Nick:  This is the hull I saw you carrying away from Dean's in December.  I am cutting mine in half, you are adding a five inch section in the middle.  Hull-cutters Anonymous  %%

Just think of the amazing battle fleet that could be assembled at Mayhem next year  :-))
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2017, 06:39:16 PM »


I shall be watching this one with interest because  :-))  I am also thinking about building HMS Invincible.
And funnily enough I'm also building HMS Dreadnought which I've cut in half to make it easier to transport.
Good luck!
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2017, 07:29:54 PM »

Oh glee another interesting build log to watch Nick. Even with the irregularities that have cropped up due to the surgery, I reckon you have less filling to do than with some plank on frame/grp projects. She will look lovely with the two slightly different turret styles.

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2017, 09:31:08 PM »

Hi everyone


I have had some fun attaching the extension piece today and checking everything as I went. I found that I needed to place two pieces of wood beneath the joints as support and then place weights into the hull in form of old 12v SLA batteries to push the hull into shape. When everything was dry I found that there was a little bit of mis-alignment in the curvature sections but at worst is was only approx 0.5mm in difference. I have strengthened the joint with a layer of GRP and resin to seal the joint, never used GRP before and was surprised how easy it was to work with and for it to cure.
As warspite suggested I have filed the areas where the thicknesses were radically different and cause problems. Hopefully from the pictures below you should be able to see my progress.


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Nick B

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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2017, 10:33:43 PM »

Hi Nick......the finished joint looks [mechanically] sound internally, however I must have missed how you actually joined both ends of the 5" extension piece as it appear they simply butted to either end of the hull shell?

So my fear is the downward forces of the mass within the hull will not be adequately supported

The extension piece from Deans has the same stepped profile as the hull, so you could consider scotch welding filaments of glass string outby of the extension piece and glass back over the surface in the depressions of the hull plates

In real life, many ships have been lengthened, an their hulls visibly display external doubling plates.....considering your model is of riveted plate construction....real simulated strengthening plates could be used in your model

[surfboard building was always a great pastime in OZ, & I learnt a few pointers in glass reinforcement from a mate ie., no point in only having the strength where you stand  <*<]

Derek

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2017, 10:50:23 PM »

Hi Derek

If you look in photos number 7 and 8 you can see my scarf joint being created by the piece of 1/32" marine ply which was seven inches wide allowing an inch on each side of the extension piece so I had something to glue to. The hull pieces aren't butt jointed, and the final pictures in my first post are not of the glued hull. There will be strengthening beams as per the Deans Marine Dreadnought kit so I've got something to attach platforms for motors, ESCs and batteries.
The real hull was a purpose built hull not an extended hull created afterwards so strengthening plates aren't required, the real vessel did suffer fatally at the Battle of Jutland when the hull broke into two after the final salvo from SMS Lutzow.
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Capt Podge

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2017, 11:14:13 PM »

Hi Nick, is this a replacement for the Dreadnought hull from Germany ?

Sorry, but I'm a bit confused... :embarrassed:

Regards,

Ray.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2017, 11:21:07 PM »

Hi Ray


I think you've definitely mixed my hulls, I've got too many! %%


This hull is from Deans Marine and is being converted into the first battlecruiser HMS Invincible.
I have her adversary SMS Scharnhorst as a GRP hull which came from Germany after a lengthy battle with the company which produced it. Together they will recreate the Battle of the Falkland Islands 1914.


Hope I've cleared up the confusion.
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Nick B

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2017, 11:28:10 PM »

Ah, that clarifies it all - think my confusion stemmed from Invincible being mentioned in your Scharnhorst thread - now I can sit back, relax and enjoy BOTH build threads. %%

Thanks for clearing that up. :-))

Regards,

Ray.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2017, 03:14:25 PM »

Do you intend to increase the grp matting internally to extend further towards the bow and stern, as 1" may seem enough but there will be undue stress on the two joints and it wont harm laying matting fore and aft to strengthen the whole area. You could work in some battons to act as motor mounts.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2017, 03:26:47 PM »

I would have thought a 7 inch scarf joint with GRP extending at least an inch beyond that, plus the "U" shape reinforcement on the inside should be more than adequate.  There will be resin on the outer side of the join as well.

I am also cutting a hull, an even larger one, but in my case that is to transport a seven foot plus ship in manageable length sections.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2017, 03:49:28 PM »

I've done some testing trying to break the joint by overloading the hull with 8 12v SLAs and it seems pretty strong. However the engineer in me wants that little extra back up (we did get told that techies have a habit of over engineering things!) and I will add some 15mm square lengths of wood to act as beams and act as platform supports for my motors, ESCs, etc. The sides will be built up to the next deck level with 1/32" ply backing and plasticard plating and this will be coated with GRP matting to strengthen the joints.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2017, 05:21:24 PM »

Just being over cautious, the thought of say overscale waves pushing the bow and stern up and down could cause undue stress on your not one but two joints, a couple of overlength hull bottomed shaped sheets in the bottom might help with spreading the stress, but your more qualified than me to decide this.  :embarrassed:
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2017, 08:00:12 PM »

With an external skin, internal stringers as well as deck wales and supports, that will be one strong girder.

It is a shame that HMS Canopus did not have more involvment in the battle apart from waking Spee up nicely  :-)
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 08:12:47 PM »


Hi everyone


I've not been idle despite some trying times with broken brake pipes on my car (very scary!!!) and some very strange shift times, and hopefully a job posting within the RAF of something I've always wanted to do may appear soon. ;)
Anyway...
I have extended the hull sides up to the upper deck of the 'Dreadnought' using 1/32" ply as a backing with 1.5mm plastic card plating. This will be strengthened with a layer of GRP matting and resin at a later date once everything is positioned. You may notice a hole in the stern which is the aft torpedo tube made from brass tube with a plastic back which is then surrounded by body filler. Beneath the 8mm ply board are three 8mm square 1m lengths of wood which act as beams and for something to attach the board to. I have added the coaming around the inside of the hull to start to create the shape of the hull.
And finally the Invincible class battlecruiser had a double keel curve whilst Dreadnought only had one, so I had to create a second by carving a wooden base coated with body filler to smooth it into the surrounding hull.




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Nick B

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 08:19:14 PM »

Excellent Nick  :-)) The stern tube is a nice touch.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 08:38:36 PM »

Now that is a challenging and complex reworking of your Dreadnaught hull to create HMS Invincible.  I thought that adding five inches in the middle was difficult enough, but it appears that was only the start.
Nice job with the stern torpedo tube   :-))
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2017, 12:42:11 PM »

Well I've had fun over the last two weekends. Spent an enjoyable four hours at Deans Marine and bought some fantastic prop shafts and propellers, now I need to speak to SHG for some belts and pulleys before I stick them in. I've started to add the different plating to the hull from the thinnest plasticard I've ever seen, and the aft superstructure rising from the quarter deck has been added too. And finally I've started the bilge keels, one can be seen stuck in position already.
Anyway enjoy... :-))


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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 01:54:19 PM »

Now an off the wall thought. The hull is looking pretty good and if it comes out very well Deans Marine may be interested in taking a moulding for other Invincibles? You may even be able to do some kind of deal?


Cheers


Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 03:14:12 PM »

Where did you get your plastic from? Is it Evergreen or another make??

She's looking great.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 10:09:09 PM »

Thanks guys, I'm very happy of the progress so far :-))


Geoff: we're in the process of sorting out another hull that we hope is okay for Deans Marine of another vessel, so we are learning from this and hopefully an Invincible GRP hull could be made available in the near future. I'll have to speak to Ron about it.


Ian: I think it's Evergreen, I was given the paper thin card by a Wickies club member several years ago to make funnels so next time I see him I'll ask.


I've started the forward superstructure after finding a beautifully clear picture of Invincible at Malta in January 1915 being repaired after the battle. I'll include both the picture of the real Invincible and the progress of the superstructure in my next instalment. :-)
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Nick B

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2017, 10:22:17 PM »

Lovely job Nick, and superb finish.  Will anyone be able to tell where the joins and extensions were? 
I don't think so.   :-))
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2017, 01:54:11 PM »

Are you familiar with a book called "Clydebank Battlecrusiers". Whilst not Invincible there are some really excellent on board detail shots of Inflexible being built. As sister ships they would have been almost identical with the main difference being the gun turret design as Invincible was built using electric training and elevation. The fore and aft turrets were the same but the mid-ship turrets were to a different design.


There is also an Invincible monograph (John Roberts - I may be mistaken) published many years ago which is quite good, pictures and drawings. Try: www.abebooks.co.uk they may have a copy.


I await progress with interest.


Cheers


Geoff
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