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Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 33434 times)

Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #150 on: April 26, 2018, 01:50:55 PM »

Curiously I'm also using some old car blower motors (Talbot Horizon) for my Invincible. I know these work as I used identical motors on Iron Duke and she performs quite adequately and whilst top speed is a little faster than scale I don't have a lot in reserve. 


I gave a lot of thought to the actual propellers and ordered some from "Model Props" - these are three blade and are 45mm in diameter (coarse pitch). I think these are larger than yours (35mm?) as the actual blade area is significantly larger than the comparable 35mm alternative props I looked at.


Its possible the lack of speed may be caused by too small a blade area so you would need higher revs than anticipated to develop the thrust. Blower motors tend to be high in torque and low in revs.


In Iron Duke I run my engines on 6 volts which is perfectly adequate (these motors will run on anything from 4.5 volts up to 14 volts). I know from experiments if I ran them on 12 volts it would go like a destroyer! In my experience scale sized props can perform poorly due to the scale effect of the water.


What I'm particularly interested in is that ID has four bladed props and Invincible 3 bladed and as both ships are using identical engines it will be interesting to see the speed achieved. Invincible is both shorter and narrower and has a more streamlined hull shape than ID and as she will also be lighter (I hope) so she should be faster.


First finish plating the hull and painting and then I can do some trial tests.


Cheers


Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2018, 12:10:14 PM »

Hi everyone


I havenít been ignoring you, Iíve had two problems. My internet seems to be messing around (now fixed) and secondly Iíve been ill with a rather nasty cough which caused me some issues (almost fixed!).


In between my coughing fits Iíve almost finished one side of the hull with regards to hull plating, portholes, hatches, hawsers, booms, and torpedo net boom hinge points. After some research for the Battle of Falkland Islands fit it appears only the nets and booms were removed so Iím having to fit little hand rails from RB Fittings to represent the hinge points. Anchors have been fitted and Iíve detailed the the hatches with Ďeyebrows Ď and hinges. Iíve also made a shipís boom which has some unusual davits which I will make later.


Iíve taken Geoffís advice and ordered some different props from Simon Higgins of Protean Design. I went for a 40mm 3 blade made from cast bronze. Iíve tested the motors and they really are under powered, you can actually stall them with your fingers whilst running at full power (12v)!!!


BCAD6_EB0_58_D4_413_C_8_B65_0_CCECE24_FFAC" border="0 745_D6626_B6_F8_4666_A6_AD_B32_F9_F08957_E" border="0 7_A520712_9_BE9_4590_9_CCC_5_CEEBAF182_A8" border="0 6_F69_B516_283_C_4_B85_ACBF_1_D1_DFA7_E5792" border="0 ECD588_D0_7915_4760_8_E57_101789_D86_CE8" border="0
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2018, 12:29:15 PM »

Nick,

Hope you are on the mend and nice to see you are making progress. As regards the torpedo nets they were typically used in home waters where there was some concern with submarines at anchorage so ships on extended missions (to the Falklands) sometimes had them removed as the potential submarine threat was virtually non existent, but often refitted on their return, hence the contradictory pictures as it all depends on the precise date.

Whilst I'm modelling mine at the time of Jutland evidence is contradictory if the Battlecruisers mounted them or not. I certainly recall seeing a picture of Lion on the way home showing torpedo nets and yet another of Indefatigable before she was sunk not showing nets (assuming the picture date is correct.

I plan to model them as:

1) Conflicting evidence exists
2) The Sambrook plans show them
3) They will make a very nice and distinctive model feature and add considerable detail.

On another note I just rebuilt both brass tripods as on checking they were too wide at the top with the legs being too prominent. The legs actually meet at a point immediately below the control top so the control top is really only supported directly by the central leg, which in turn was supported by the legs, hence why, on Invincible there is an external ladder outside on the legs as a secondary way to the control top. The main route being a ladder inside the main leg.

I should have examined the plans more carefully.

One think I have not been able to clarify is how is the foremast year fixed to the center leg - even in the Dreadnought Anatomy of the ship book this seems unclear.

Cheers

Geoff

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dreadnought72

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2018, 03:19:07 PM »

FIVE (!How did that happen?) years ago I was involved in this discussion on another forum regarding nets (or not) at Jutland. I'll let you read it to judge for yourself.


Personally?


The Historian in me would suggest Invincible never carried nets after her forward funnel was raised in Gibraltar, following the Falklands Battle.


The Modeller in me would accept that we're only ever making representations of vessels - after all, we can never be 100% accurate - and as Invincible had had nets at one point in time, it wouldn't particularly bother me to see a model carrying them alongside other (pretty minor) details that might date to a few years later. She's representing a ship: not 'that ship at precisely six-twenty-and-fifty-seconds on May 31st, 1916'.


Andy
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #154 on: May 03, 2018, 01:46:17 PM »

I've had a re-think on my 19 April post re the bridge superstructure. The well known picture of Invincible with one of the casemate gun barrels shot off after the Falklands battle clearly shows the bridge is indeed a little back from the front of the conning tower.


Also the other picture of Invincible steaming at the Falklands with all the smoke also shows its set back so I'm now of the opinion the Sambrook plans are correct in showing the set back.


What continues to puzzle me is that in all of the plans they show three bridge windows so if the bridge was moved back shouldn't there now only be two, which is clearly not the case as there would seem to have been little room to move the whole structure aft?


More research needed but mind you I'm a long way from building the final components in this area!


Cheers


Geoff
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #155 on: May 03, 2018, 09:20:09 PM »

If the floor remains the same area then the windows need not be changed. If the bridge would impact any structure when being moved back from the position where it was originally intended to sit, then alterations affecting the layout of windows might occur.
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Akira

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2018, 01:04:51 PM »

Here is Invincible, 1909, does this help?
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2018, 06:58:09 PM »

Hi Akira


Thatís a brilliant picture but unfortunately in 1913/4 Invincible was refitted with a different bridge layout (and forward superstructure secondary armament) which was very reserved even by this pictureís rendition.
The bridge navigation area was completely removed (the bit above the conning tower) and the searchlight deck was completely redesigned to allow for casemate 12pdr guns. The big problem is the lack of clear pictures of the redesigned bridge area, the clearest Iíve seen is Invincible in refit at Gibraltar after the Battle of the Falkland Islands but the picture is cropped at the crucial area!


A bit of progress today...


FE062645_3_AFD_4_EE3_AB12_E28336251_E23" border="0 AF17303_E_4_AD1_41_D6_A1_E0_C8_C99599_EA91" border="0 0_FBAA7_B0_CA60_4_B67_851_F_9909_D446_C66_F" border="0


The first layer of primer is on and I need to some sanding and polishing before the next layer.
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Nick B

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Akira

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #158 on: May 06, 2018, 02:10:48 PM »

Sorry I am off on the time line. The same book has a photo of of Invincible in 1915 at Gibralter if that will work, She is undergoing a "minor refit" Bridge is shown. Also has Indomitable and Inflexible immediately post war. I'l post them if they will help.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2018, 03:52:47 PM »

That primer would look good for just pre WW1 and early war grey.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #160 on: May 08, 2018, 08:31:40 AM »

Nick,

What grey primer are you using as the colour looks good?

Cheers

Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2018, 08:58:15 AM »

Hi Geoff


Itís Halfords Primer grey, I think we were talking about the various greys at Warwick and it was between Halfords grey and Humbrol 27 but I think we decided it was too blue-ish in tint to be close enough.
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Nick B

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2018, 09:28:27 AM »

That's the same as I use for warships of that era.  A little darker than WWII warships. 
The Halfords red primer is ideal for anti-foul. 
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #163 on: May 10, 2018, 02:03:44 PM »

Nick,


What glue did you use to glue the plating on? I seem to recall it was just superglue but was this the runny stuff or the gel and was there any particular method you used or just coat with thin film and stick?


Cheers


Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #164 on: May 10, 2018, 08:40:13 PM »

Hi Geoff


Yes itís the super thin CA glue, I spread it on the back of the plate Iím going to glue to the hull and carefully place it in position, wiping any excess as soon as possible. As long as itís spread evenly and to the edges it wonít come off easily- even cutting it off is difficult!
Hope this helps
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Nick B

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Richelieu

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #165 on: May 16, 2018, 08:13:52 AM »


The Modeller in me would accept that we're only ever making representations of vessels - after all, we can never be 100% accurate -

Andy

Hi Andy,
I agree 200% with you. This is especially true when we try to built a ship in a state she was in at a specific date. What I realised collecting materials (mostly photos) for my own ship is that sailors kept on working and modifying details nearly on a weekly basis in my case.

Cheers

Serge
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #166 on: May 16, 2018, 10:17:47 PM »

I noticed this when reading up about HMS Cochrane. She had numerous weapons fits and changes to her AA armament, had her nets removed, then searchlights moved, added then removed, top masts removed and a director platform fitted, all in seven years. Don't get hung up on the rivets, just build a pleasing model and concentrate on what makes your ship interesting.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #167 on: May 17, 2018, 12:57:23 PM »

Thatís my reasoning to choose a period of 1914-15 and use the photos that Geoff and I have of the superstructure. I tried to set a specific date for my HMS Gnat several years ago but got it down to between May 10th and October 21st 1941 as information dried up to get any closer to the October date so Iím happy to represent the model as an era not a specific date/time:minute!
Iím happy to say that my Invincible will represent her to just before the Battle of the Falkland Islands 1914 to her refit in 1915 when her forward funnel was raised.
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #168 on: May 18, 2018, 06:02:29 PM »

A bit of progress... Iíve temporarily painted the hull so you get some impression of what itíll look like when finished. The main mast has been soldered, and spotting top and lower searchlight platform has been made from 1.5mm plastic card. The paint job is ok but I need to redo the waterline has the masking was not 100% correct.


848_AB470_B65_D_4108_87_C1_5035_B957_AE6_D" border="0 0044_D0_CC_0270_4_FAB_AE0_B_EF506_D931440" border="0 AFDD103_C_E45_B_4219_A3_B4_5_B9_D41_D5335_B" border="0
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #169 on: May 18, 2018, 07:44:04 PM »


Lovely stuff Nick  :-)) A splash of paint does bring it to life and helps give it proportion.


Will you be displaying it next weekend?
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #170 on: May 18, 2018, 07:46:18 PM »

Hi Ian


It certainly does, it puts everything together nicely.
She will be displayed at Wicksteed next weekend but it depends whether the motor couplings arrive in the next week if she appears on the water.
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2018, 02:22:07 PM »

I'm looking forward to this year's event as there will be an indecent number of capital ships on display and sailing  :}
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #172 on: May 21, 2018, 08:51:43 AM »

Looking very good indeed. Will you be bringing your Dreadnought on Saturday as well?

Cheers

Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #173 on: May 21, 2018, 09:19:09 AM »

Hi Geoff


Dreadnought will be ready for action too, just hoping that the new motor couplings arrive soon so I can at least get a test run out of Invincible. Sounds like a battleship busy day! :-))
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #174 on: May 21, 2018, 10:42:05 PM »

Hussar!
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