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Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 33135 times)

Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #175 on: May 31, 2018, 01:52:40 PM »

Nick,


Can you remind me where you got the stanchions for your Dreadnought and also the eyelets for the torpedo boom bottom links on Invincible, as they looked perfect.


Thanks


Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #176 on: May 31, 2018, 02:14:04 PM »

Hi Geoff

The stanchions are 11mm 3 ball from RB Fittings (074113 pack of 20) and the torpedo net boom eyelets are Ďhand railsí also from RB Fittings (00138 pack of 20). I got mine from Deans Marine.
For the stanchion wire I used 0.2mm diameter nickel silver rod.
Hope this helps
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Nick B

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #177 on: May 31, 2018, 04:23:42 PM »

Useful info Nick.  I shall make a note of that.

PS:  Martin:  Instead of just "Navy - Military - Battleships", how about a new Mayhem Category "XXL Warships".
ie:  Anything with guns and over 5 foot long.    %%

Extra sized battleships have their own unique problems, such as how to power and steer them effectively.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #178 on: May 31, 2018, 10:22:58 PM »

Ö.And transport them about without injuring their owner!
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #179 on: May 31, 2018, 10:32:42 PM »

Just managed to resolder the main mast tripod after Geoffís advice- I always thought the mast looked odd but after speaking to Geoff on Saturday Iíve remodelled them by grinding away some of the main mast allowing the supporting arms to sit further into the mast- it looks so much better- pictures to come soon as Iím currently filling in some imperfections in the hull which Iím not happy with ( well I know that theyíre there!!!! {-) ).
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #180 on: May 31, 2018, 10:48:37 PM »

They do niggle don't they  %) I am looking forwward to see your reworked masts to learn for the future.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #181 on: August 07, 2018, 08:49:09 AM »

Nick,


I've made an interesting discovery which may be of assistance to you, and many others, who are building model warships. One of the issues is the amount of rigging and bottle-screws that are used to tension the rigging and how to represent these on a model.


I was looking at how to make these and it occurred to me that fishing line swivels may be of some use. Have a look for "Diamond Eye Match Swivels" size "14". These are just like miniature bottle-screws. They have a loop at each end and a short tube in the middle. They measure 1/4" long so 2 feet at 1/96 scale. They also do sizes down to "22" so even smaller. Like wire gauge the higher the number the smaller the size. There are different designs as well with subtle differences.


Size "14" cost £2 for 20 so they are quite affordable and in bulk say £5 for 50 on e-bay. They are actually really very small such that size 22 may be too small! I'll investigate and report back.


I'm working on the net defence and have made 28 booms including the short ones at the bow so was looking in details for the fittings. Anatomy of the ship Dreadnought has full details and I'm pretty sure Invincible would have been virtually identical, so hence the search for the small bottle-screw detailing which makes a lot of difference.


Cheers


Geoff


Geoff





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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #182 on: August 09, 2018, 04:11:32 AM »

Hi Geoff


Thanks for the tip, Iíve just ordered a pack of 20 for when I get home next Wednesday- I hope- I nearly managed to impale myself on an aerial on the aircraft yesterday! A nice tear on the skin near my rib cage but hopefully nothing serious to stop me flying. :-))
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #183 on: August 27, 2018, 06:28:33 PM »

Hi everyone


Managed to get home a little later than expected but home I am!


I have started to correct my little mess up and have now finished painting the hull again. I have also added the mushroom vents and the very unusual fairlead/bullring? fittings. I have never seen this fitted to anyother warship so its a bit unusual.


Just for Ian: You can see my corrected main mast as per Geoff's advice, it looks very much like the real battlecruiser now!

















She is going to the Dean's Marine Open weekend if anyone wants to see her in the real plastic! :-))
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #184 on: August 27, 2018, 09:03:13 PM »

Welcome back Nick. I'm pleased you got home safe and sound. She looks great and the masts are coming along a treat.
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #185 on: September 05, 2018, 07:14:50 PM »

Hi everyone, and Geoff in particular!

I have been sorting out some planking for the deck of the mighty Invincible but come across an oddity!

Remember when you mentioned that the forward mast support struts were oddly offset? I've found out why-The entire forward supersturcture is kinked to starboard!
I discovered this whilst lining up the cut-in boards around the superstructures and the deck edges. To make sure I was in a striaght line to the centre line I was measuring everything before I committed to glue. When I had finished I laid down some planks to start the long task and they looked odd as I approached the port side of the forward superstructure. They kinked massively when in my opinion they shouldn't. I went back to measuring the superstructure from the centre line and kept finding the discrepenses. The only way I could get them to look 'right' was to kink the superstructure off to starboard at the forward end and to port towards the aft. This was just to get the planks to look 'striaght' and not really odd. I spent the best part of the afternoon trying to work out why it worked being kinked and not when measured properly from the centreline. I looked again at our favourite book 'British Battlecruisers 1905-1920' by John Roberts, particularily at the fold out plans in the centre and behold it confirmed my issue!
Can you check your copy to see if its a printing error (I doubt it but you never know)? I've laid a rule on the edge of the aft superstructure and I can see a visible off-set, you can see it clearer if you look at the supporting structure beams and some of the coaling scuttles are not symmetric.

See you what you think, I may be a biff at the moment being very fatigued- I may be missing something obvious!


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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #186 on: September 06, 2018, 08:51:17 AM »

Nick,

Hmm, how very interesting. I was aware that the aft superstructure block was not quite the same width as the forward structure but hadn't caught the port slant is different from the starboard slant on the forward superstructure - the angles are not in line with each other.

I'll check and get back to you, however with the original hull lines on ID from the Maritime Museum there was 1/8" difference in aft beam to forward beam which was impossible. So the lesson from this is that the original plans may well have distorted over time and if so this may also happen to other plans including Invincible and the superstructure plans which in turn would be copied into any publication.

I can't see any logical engineering or technical reason why the forward superstructure would be twisted or offset on the original - its also possible it was an oversight on the original plans as they were free-drawn and as above maybe distorted over time which is more logical.

I have certainly made the forward superstructure sides on my Invincible parallel and with the forward angles symmetrical. The aft tripod legs are however splayed further apart than the forward tripod.

I'll do some checking and will get back to you - what do the Sambrook plans show as I have found they are pretty accurate?


Cheers

Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #187 on: September 06, 2018, 08:26:49 PM »

Hi Geoff,


I've checked the Sambrook plans and they are different too! They show that the forward superstructure is fully off-set to port by about 1.5mm equating to approx 9inches to 1ft in reality. I think its a mistake or a distortion as I'm studying the photographs of Inflexible being built in Clydebank Battlecruisers book and they show the planks being perfectly straight along both superstructures going forward to the bows as you would expect. I'm ignoring the plans in this respect and builting it as it looks 'right' to my Mk 1 eyeball.
As you say there is no engineering reason to build it like this and there measurements are so small that it makes no difference on the real vessel. I haven't found anything to say otherwise.
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #188 on: September 09, 2018, 09:48:32 PM »

I will study my plans of Cochrane just in case. Your hours of effort and head scratching (And I bet the tea caddy got a battering as well!) were not in vain.
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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #189 on: September 09, 2018, 11:24:22 PM »

Nick....the following in just a view to understanding your question in the accuracy of the as Built Plan set for the Invincible, and so simply an argument on why the vessel would not have been built with questionable alignments 

.....'theodolites have been used in all forms of ship construction for 100's of years....these together with Trigonomical tables & brass reference plates fixed to Drydocks would have enabled vessels such as being discussed to have been built on or from a singular axis of symmetry

So from a constructional perspective, there is absolutely no limitation or consideration that the build could have deviated from that singular axis of symmetry

The original and final plan set material as you realise would have been ink on a Flaxen reinforced paper, the copied again and again in one or the ink & Ammonia based copy processes with hundreds & hundreds of copies provided to the Shipyard Plate Marking, Shearing, Punching, Rolling, Assembly, Riveting & Machining Departments etc [armament's, communications, boilers & engine works were literally the only subcontracted lots]

Early ammonia copy processes without careful attention could distort physical shapes & hence apparent sizes, however not just a random object within a larger image, so the question of any form of plan distortion in any specific general area building block is out of the question

One other serious point is each and every Manufacturing Drawing [according to Protocols] would have marked as "Do Not Scale" . This literally means if a dimension is not scribed as eg [x feet & y inches] do not scale to approximate..... <*<

The Naval Drawing Office protocols in Drawing Revisions were such that numerous minor works were often not officially documented with major works to change of design or scope of supply to the sub-contracted work were often mechanically completed & installed before the Official Drawings sets were revised 

[I have personally experienced this with our RAN vessels, when reviewing as built RN drawn plans for Vickers twin 4.5" gun mounts]

From this, I suggest the Plan set you have been provided with is just a copy of one of the hundreds of Plans that were incorrectly drawn and escaped the final review

Derek

PS...it would be interesting to view the largest size possible on the lower right hand side of the Drawings or the Title Block Y associated wordings O0
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dreadnought72

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #190 on: September 10, 2018, 11:13:40 AM »

I suppose the other issue is that there's a little discrepancy listed for capital ships of this era: beam slightly wider than designed (due to the weight of plating on frames, pulling them out), hogging, keel deviations from true, etc. These are invariably not more than an inch or so - pretty much undetectable on the ship, and vanishingly so on a model.


I would, in this instance, be doubting the plans above all else.


Andy
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser- The Gun turrets
« Reply #191 on: September 29, 2018, 07:13:17 PM »

Well whilst I'm waiting for more deck planking material I decided to start to modify the gun turrets to the Invincible style.

The four GRP gun turrets I am using are available from Dean's Marine as the standard 12-inch turrets used on the HMS Dreadnought kits. However, Invincible was not only the prototype battlecruiser she had prototype gun turrets powered by that newly fangled stuff called electricity! The Admiralty being their usual-selves didn't trust new stuff so they contracted two companies to build two turrets each hence Invincible has four gun turrets in two distinct styles. Armstrong Whitworth built P and Q turrets (the centre turrets) which were electrically powered whilst Vickers made A and Y turret (fore and aft turrets) which were hydraulically powered. However there seemed to be no marked improvement of the electrically powered turrets so they were converted back to conventional hydraulics in 1914. In fact when the electrically powered turrets were moved there were large amount of electrical sparking which understandably put off a lot of the gun crews.

I have started on A and Y turret as the first pair. This has involved removing 2/3rds of the roof and the aft quarter panel to change the shape. Invincible's turrets had a larger flatter roof section compared to Dreadnought but an angled rear section but the same length as the battleship turret. I have attached photos of the standard 12-inch turret next to the modified turret. I have used 1.5mm thick plasticard sheet scored to bend the outer roof sections down, superglue attaches it to the GRP, and normal plastic glue to attach the sheets together. I then reinforced the joins with superglue just incase. I still have to detail the turret roofs and add the sighting hood on the forward turret.

IMG_0181" border="0 IMG_0182" border="0
IMG_0178" border="0 IMG_0179" border="0 IMG_0180" border="0
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #192 on: October 01, 2018, 08:26:59 AM »

Nick,

If you make them hollow you can get a gunfire system in as well! :-) :-)

Cheers

Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #193 on: October 01, 2018, 10:45:42 AM »

Hi Geoff


Thatís hopefully going to be the intention! :-))
I spent yesterday afternoon rebuilding the aft plates on the turrets when I realised my version was angling out at the bottom and should have been vertical. I was quite pleased with my work on Saturday until I spotted that! :D
Iím surprised at the appearance difference between the standard Dreadnought turrets and Invincibleís. I thought that they were similar with just an angled back sections but I couldnít believe how much had to be cut away- might have been easier to build from scratch but Iím trying to use everything from a Dreadnought kit as an example of how to modify a kit to your wants.
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #194 on: October 01, 2018, 10:53:30 AM »

Nick,

Depending on how many turrets you want to fire I can work out a schematic where the PTC thermistors are vertical so they will easily fit into Invincible/Dreadnought turrets (and smaller) with remote fluid reservoir and pump. There may even be some benefits as there would be a lot more room for insulation.

Just let me know.

Cheers

Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #195 on: October 01, 2018, 11:04:53 AM »

Hi Geoff


That would be great. Iím surprised how small the space is inside the turret hood once itís all together!
Let me know if need you any help with anything youíre having problems with. :-))

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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #196 on: October 05, 2018, 01:43:02 PM »

Nick,


Please see attached. There is no reason why the pump and fluid container needs to be under the turret. If at an angle it will all fit into a smaller turret. It can then be surrounded in insulation. the remote pump and fluid reservoir will work as usual. There are a number of benefits:


1) It fits a smaller turret
2) More insulation
3) A standard sized servo can be used




Cheers




Geoff



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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #197 on: October 06, 2018, 06:48:10 PM »

Hi Geoff


Many thanks for the re-design, it looks really promising to get everything fitted in the space I have. I would have replied yesterday but unfortunately I spent fours hours in Kettering A&E with Dad after seeing the local GP. He had a suspect blood clot in his leg but after three hours waiting for all the results to come back it was inconclusive but they've put him on blood thinners just incase- he's got a scan on monday to double check there isn't anything hidden that they couldn't see last night.
In the meantime with the gun turrets I've decided to scratch build P and Q turrets as I've double checked the plans and available pictures and there seems to be no point modifying the GRP items as I would only end up using two side plates! I've just spent the afternoon re-modifying the front face of A and Y turrets as they didn't match the drawings enough. >:-o
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #198 on: October 08, 2018, 08:35:24 AM »

Nick,

Firstly I hope all goes well with your dad. In some ways its good news that they didn't find anything specific.

I should have mentioned with the re-design that the silicon fog fluid pipe should be inherently flexible so a turret can rotate 180 degrees with ease.

On my Invincible I have finished the ant--torpedo net booms and gave the base superstructures their first coat of grey paint which makes a significant difference.

I'm not entirely happy with my gun turrets either as I think they may be a few mm high at the face but I may be able to live with it. P and Q are of course completely different shapes.

They are not too time consuming to construct in thin ply as all the plates are basically flat. I used thin alloy sheet for the roof plates which give a slight spring when screwed down.

Cheers

Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #199 on: October 09, 2018, 10:45:57 PM »

Do wish your Dad my regards Nick. Mine had his Gall bladder out last week, so we both have Paters healing. The external reservoir is a valuable development of the original system and not only benefits the builder warships with smaller turrets, but also the converter of existing modes that may not have as much internal space under the turrets. While elegant, the barbette mounting for everything in one is best for larger turrets.
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