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Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 28621 times)

ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2017, 03:12:24 PM »

Lovely progress Nick. White's policy of designs with minimal superstructure is still evident on these early dreadnought and Battlecruiser designs.

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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2017, 09:53:32 PM »

Hi Nick, your model is coming on great guns look forward to seeing it. Ref fire hose basket looks a standard ready use you see on all vessels even today on deck, you connect into the fire main with the end nozzle on and roll out the hose down the deck. As to deck lights all vessels have them , how else can you see on deck at night in port or at sea.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2017, 06:40:50 PM »

Progress from over the bank holiday weekend...


My barbette holes have been cut using a large hole cutter- almost wrenched both Steve's and mine shoulder out of their sockets! The little white stubby pipes sticking through the deck and the aft superstructure are the tops of the pipes from the foggy units sitting beneath the decks.


IMG_2117" border="0 IMG_2118" border="0 IMG_2119" border="0 IMG_2120" border="0
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2017, 06:46:04 PM »

They are neat Nick. Did you tape them first to hold the wood in place?
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2017, 07:01:16 PM »

Actually it was us being a bit lucky!!!


The foggies aren't stuck in place yet so they are free to move around and the barbettes were measured from the plan (which helpfully had the centres marked). What you can just see in the pictures is that the deck access has been cut out already and the entire deck from just in front of the forward turret to the aft superstructure is now fully removable. The access panel is being supported by a 10mm wide flange which will have next weekend the side beams to keep the hull sides apart. I had to wait until now to check where all the holes were going!
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2017, 08:13:41 PM »

Really nice barbette holes (envious). You have got the join between the lift off section and the narrow surround very precise.  It's not quite the whole deck that lifts off, but darned near close to it.

I should have waited a couple of weeks to draw knowledge from what you are doing, instead of deck building at the same time.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2017, 08:36:05 PM »

Don't worry Bob, you'll sort the Agincourt decks out, probably better organised than me!
It wasn't until I came to cut the deck that I realised that I had messed up using my original plan. I had to cut the fore deck off completely then cut down the sides leaving a 6mm strip flopping around worryingly close to breaking off at times. The port turret barbette hole almost knocked me out as the hole cutter wasn't 100% perfectly level and the drill flung out of Steve's hands and spun around to hit me on the head!
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Nick B

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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2017, 08:53:12 PM »


Sounds if you had an exciting time nick.
David
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2017, 09:27:09 PM »

Nick:  I will modify my earlier statement.  I should have waited a couple of weeks to draw knowledge from what you are doing right, and also to avoid the possible pitfalls.

Invincible is looking the business already  :-))
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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2017, 09:00:51 PM »

Hi Nick, reading a book the other day (a brilliant and very informative book) called endless story, the writer was saying when these boats were first built they were called large cruisers. He goes on in the book to describe the Helgoland battle, where he was involved as a destroyer C O  , where he said apart from Falklands this was the type of warfare they were designed for.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2017, 02:01:43 PM »

The invincible class were actually armoured cruisers when built and were designed to fight enemy cruisers with 8" guns and were armoured accordingly which they did very successfully at the Falklands. They were also designed to catch armed German liners which they could with their 25 knot speed.


Once enemy ships were built of similar speed their value diminished considerably. The category changed from Armoured Cruisers to Battlecruisers just before WW1 which gave the impression of a new class of ship.


Their 12" guns were fine for fighting cruisers but with 12" guns an admiral was bound to put them in the battle line where their higher speed was irrelevant and lack of armour dangerous.


However it should be noted that they were the worlds first "Fast reaction force" and as such were strategically very significant. Invincible also inflicted the fatal damage which sank Lutzow at Jutland with excellent gunnery. Interestingly she had just completed some long range gunnery practice at Scapa Flow with the Grand Fleet which is why she and her two sisters were with Jellico and not Beatty.


Its also why the Queen Elizabeth fast battleships were with Beatty as temporary replacements.


The German attacks on the east coast forced Jellico to send the Battlecruisers south to intercept but at Rosyth there were no provisions for long range gunnery practice.


We have all seen the famous picture of Invincible exploding at Jutland but some of you may not know that "Danruther" the gunnery control officer in the fore top survived as did a marine "Glasson" I think who was in Q turret and incredibly was blown clear!


Really quite interesting ships.


I have laid the keel for one as well and am now planking the hull also at 1/96 scale!




Cheers


Geoff



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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2017, 03:41:01 PM »

Hi Geoff/Nick

If you're interested in what happened on Lutzow, search on  Grace's Guide for The Engineer magazine of 9th July 1926, written by one of the officers on board her. Pages 30/31
Especially the comments about gunnery control at the end.

Tony
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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2017, 04:44:40 PM »

Hi mate, yeah, well I know what you are saying and it is well documented, though the DNC of the time did not want to build them as he said as soon as Admirals see their size of guns and displacement they would want to put them in the line of battle fleet. I was simply telling Nick what this well known WW1 Destroyer captain said about them in his book, written just after WW1 about TBD's and Destroyers in WW1. Though I believe Rear Admiral Hood went up with these ships and he was a greater loss to the Navy than these vessels. But there you are it was a long time ago and the people who truly knew them are long gone and now people read contemporary letters, reports etc. and give their educated surmise on them.
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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2017, 09:25:51 PM »

I was thinking about these vessels the other night, then I remember reading, that they came about because Jackie Fisher had this idea about a new type of capital ship with little armour only armed with big guns and relied on speed to protect them from enemy vessels. When he started to demand vessels armed with 18" guns and a displacement in excess of 60,000tons plus he was removed from office, but he did chase through the Dreadnoughts and submarine design.!!
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2017, 09:38:01 PM »

He was ahead of his time, though he could not forsee that the flimsey flying machines of his time as first sea lord would become the killers of all vessels by the time that 60'000 ton battleships came into service.

I expect those who forsaw the advent of aircraft capable of such things were also scoffed at and considered unreliable in high posts of responsibility.

Whatever the situation, he got us a dozen classes of beautiful capital ships to build models of not including Battlecruisers, to which you can add another five classes and that's just the RN!
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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2017, 12:53:31 PM »

Yeah old Fisher was far seeing man compared to the usually conservative Admirals, he was the only one to foresee that submarines could not comply with Cruisers rule of engagement with merchant ships. But yes as you say not many fore saw airplane power, though I believe the RN was the first to develop flat top aircraft carriers when they did wake up. But then most of the senior Admirals at the start of the WW1 served under sail or broadside type ships like the Sultan etc.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2017, 06:40:29 PM »

Oh yes, the RNAS was flying armed and technically combat worthy aircraft while the RFC was still being very conservative and considering their machines as scout/recc only. If the Germans had not started arming their machines to counter our scouts and vice versa with various implements from grappling hooks to house bricks via pistols and hunting rifles then we 'may' not have had fighters. The Italians had successfully Bombed Turkish positions in their 1912 war, but obviouslay had nothing to strafe with.

The RNAS were trying out ideas concerning torpedo carrying and launching.

The Admiralty were not that stuffy, some of their decisions were based upon having tried something that was not yet developed enough such as the Breech loader (Armstrong breeches of the time had problems that caused the Navy to return to muzzle loading for a few years.) One author said that the navy if not ahead of the game, quite quick to adopt technologies.
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dodes

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2017, 07:19:52 PM »

I think that the ability of the Admiralty to try new tech, depended on who was the First Lord and First Sea Lord and more important how big a pot they had to play with. Plus what the DNC felt what was viable, but yes they were at times years ahead of other navies, but they were also very conservative in their policies. At times they would not go ahead with an idea in case other navies took up the idea or went one better which would start of a expensive weapon race. Though I think we judge them on present time values, with 20/20 hindsight, when then they had no such luxury and had not long gone from sail to steam and muzzle loaders to high velocity shell fire and torpedoes. The end of the day I take my hat of to them and find it all a very fascinating period.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2017, 08:00:24 PM »

Amen to that Dodes. Now how is that Invincible going Nick??
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2017, 08:38:49 PM »

Well currently very well! I'm in Cagliari having a nice evening out as part of Ex Serpentex but things are progressing whilst I'm away, Steve has ordered my outer drive belts and gears and making some rudders for me. Hopefully some work will happen when I return in 5 days time!
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Nick B

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2017, 08:16:46 PM »

Hows the ice cream there Nick, though I have high expectations for your battle cruiser and looking forward to seeing it.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2017, 08:40:51 PM »

Hi David


I have to say that it's the best ice cream I've ever had!
Glad you've got faith in me for the Invincible project, it's a lot of experimentation in one model!
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Nick B

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2017, 08:28:49 AM »

Have you seen the book British Battlecrusiers by John Roberts - the second edition. It has fold out copies of the original plans for Invincible - some sections and most of the superstructure plans all drawn to a constant scale.


These are copies of the plans held in the maritime museum so are builders as fitted plans so not model plans but there is a wealth of detail on them.


Cheers


Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2017, 04:42:20 PM »

Hi everyone


Bit of an update so far whilst Iím recovering! Recovering from what I hear you say! Whilst on holiday to lovely Dorset last Wednesday I was sitting quite nicely in a brilliant pub in Axmouth when I felt cold. So naturally I put my jacket on and less than ten minutes later I was shivering uncontrollably, so much so that my muscles started to hurt! Returning to the cottage we were staying in I went to bed still shivering. Now this is where it started getting serious- you know it gets serious when your Mum gets worried!- she came to see if I was alright and found me covered in sweat and in a high fever. She kept an eye on me all night and when I awoke I felt a lot better but with a little sore throat. Hang in here, it gets better or worse! Thinking that I had nothing worse than a chill I carried on regardless and spent a nice day in Beer caverns and Lyme Regis. The sore throat got worse and I began to struggle to swallow. In the middle of the night I felt awful and the next day we packed our cars to go home- I had intended to persuade Dad if we could go to Blackpool for the show but that went rapidly went out of the window when I decided when we pulled over at Wantage to shine a torch down my mouth and got the shock of my life. I could see what looked like pustules on my throat. Worried that I had Quincyís we went to A&E where I spent the next two hours being looked after by the Doctors and nurses of Kettering hospital. After describing my previous two days they were a bit weirded out by the events as what was on my throat wasnít Quincys but more like large ulcers. Whilst I was sitting in A&E blisters suddenly broke out on my hands, arms and feet!!!! Canít make this stuff up but the Doctors suddenly realised what was wrong with me and I had to ask again if I heard correctly! Iíve been massively run down and being tired, my immunity system was in a rather weak state I became infected with Hand, Foot and Mouth!!! Iím now recovering at home and thankfully the painful blisters are going away. But you can see how things can go so horrible so quickly and then calm down! I wonít post pictures of them but if youíre interested in what it looks like just type it into google!


Anyway enough of the life and death experiences!!! Before I went on holiday I received the drive cogs/gears and belt pulleys from SHG Models. I drilled out the outer prop shafts in their approximate location before filing out their final position ensuring that the belts were tight enough to grip but not too much that it requires all the battery power to move it for ten minutes!  Iíll get some pictures up soon of it so you can see how it all goes together.


Hi Geoff, Iíve got the book too, extremely helpful being so close to 1/192 scale.  Iíve used the pictures from RA Burtís book about WW1 Battleships to compliment the plans.


And thanks to Dodes, whilst I was well enough to read I read a fair chunk of Endless Story by Taffrail, enjoyed it so much that when Iím finished Invincible Iíd like to build HMS Scorpion, AB Cunninghamís ship!


Sorry about the ramble! :-))
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2017, 07:32:55 PM »

Ramble away old chap. I am glad you are over the worst and wish you a speedy recovery. I would build your Destroyer to a larger scale, say 1:48th so fitting the gubbins inside is easier.
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