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Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 35151 times)

raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #125 on: February 19, 2018, 12:50:53 PM »

Geoff, youíre more than welcome to post pictures of your Invincible on this thread. Love to see the work done since November.


Here is my latest update and last for the next four weeks as Iíll be busy defending the world!
Iíve been concentrating on the deck edging and hull plating which has been made from 0.25mm plastic card and 1mm for the torpedo net shelves. Iíve drilled out the port holes using a 4mm drill bit. The deck edge is completed with 0.75mm square plastic strut.


14_B4_BC0_E_65_AD_4_F32_9705_EB24_BD425618" border="0 3_ABD481_D_FF73_4_E07_912_A_E15_E7_AF81720" border="0 5_F01_D1_F1_D84_E_49_A1_96_D4_0_D2029564482" border="0 5_BE4_BEF9_5_B2_C_4075_A14_F_413_A6_BCB1_BFD" border="0 0846_BE21_C5_A4_434_A_B44_A_0_B1606_C60618" border="0
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #126 on: February 19, 2018, 01:30:15 PM »

Its looking good - I'll need to download my pictures to my PC and then I can post. I'll probably do a different thread as otherwise at may all become confusing but thank you for the offer.


I have spent the last few weekends building hollow gun turrets - awkward shapes in deed - together with the gunfire mechanisms - also awkward as I can no longer find the same thermistors!


Cheers


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #127 on: February 19, 2018, 01:33:44 PM »

I meant to add I've had other discussions on how to build the tripods and think I would build mine in brass soldered together at the top with the bottom all in a jig to hold it correctly. The difference being I plan to cut the legs to each deck length but hold it all together with a inner brass tube thus the legs will all be correct but I can slide the legs into component parts then run the inner tube through them to hold it all together - hope that makes sense!


Cheers


Geoff
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #128 on: February 19, 2018, 09:23:57 PM »

Crystal clear Geoff. No idea I have seen or thought about seems easy, so the least complex one is as good as any.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2018, 05:16:42 PM »

Well Iíve discovered many things over the weekend regarding the accuracy of some of the detail of the old Sambrook plans- Iíve had to correct the torpedo net shelf between the upper deck and the quarter deck. Some port holes shown on the plan are incorrect and required filling whilst some of the square hatches were not shown on the aft superstructure. Iíve completed the hull plating on the port side and even fitted the name plate on the stern. Iím now slowly going mad making hundreds of tiny mushroom vents!


2_DEFB374_4609_4416_AD06_AC70_EBA5813_B" border="0 A40_F00_C0_4_E96_4_B5_C_97_ED_371_F5_B0_D14_AB" border="0 57_D5_B322_1_D68_4_AED_A2_BA_FD353_BFE50_CD" border="0 4_FC1323_B_A49_C_4_A20_8153_DC559243_F1_BE" border="0 745_CDFD1_78_A4_4808_AE07_FA0931_AF0950" border="0
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2018, 08:46:56 PM »

No thanks to the original designer, but it does at least add some really novel detail  :-)) That curve of the shelf is attractive but its weight would have been better spent on a little more armour  %)
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2018, 09:25:15 PM »

Well the annoying thing is that I made a beautiful curving net shelf in a eye pleasing curve as per the drawings but when I was as studying some pictures of Indomitable being built and the double bent shelf was the result!
Another interesting thing I spotted was how on Earth was the visiting gaff boom deployed as the shipís steps that allow the crew to walk from the upper deck to the quarter deck are literally sit on top of the boom!? It wasnít until I zoomed in with a x20 magnifying glass that I spotted the hinges on the steps and the strange lines on the plans finally made some sense!
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2018, 09:59:19 PM »


It's like forensic science this model making lark!



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kevin547n

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2018, 09:57:14 PM »

What a fantastic and interesting build,
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2018, 08:50:14 AM »

Nick,


A few observations if I may:


1) Have you caught the deck discrepancy in the plans. Sambrook shows the bridge to be a little way back from the front of the conning tower but the Battlecrusiers book, with original plans shows the bridge to be in line as do all the pictures I've seen.


2) You can get a full broadside without a complex control. If the starboard turret faces forwards and the port turret faces aft then if A and Q are linked they can then both deploy to port. Then Q and Y can deploy to port. Q and Y then deploy back to the centerline, A and P deploy back to the center line then Q and Y deploy to starboard followed by A and P. It sounds complicated but in this way there is clearance to get all four turrets pointing each side.


3) The majority of pictures invariably show P and Q pointing the other way as this is to facilitate crew movement. It would also mean P and Q have to turn 270 degrees to deploy on the opposite side. With the other method they only ever have to move 90 degrees so saving considerable time.


4) I was looking at the well known picture of Invincible blowing up and it suddenly struck me that there are no shell splashes which would have been 200 feet high so the explosion clearly took place after the splashes had subsided which confirms there was a delay between the hit and the explosion - time for the poor ammunition handling to light the fuse and destroy the ship so confirmation it was not a direct magazine hit that destroyed her.


Cheers


Geoff
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2018, 09:40:05 AM »

Re the shell splashes, a statement from Captain Carslake in Inflexible, next astern, states that there was an appreciable interval after he saw the shell strike in the vicinity of Q turret after which the turret roof was blown off and the ship exploded and broke in half.

Interestingly, there was more than one 'famous photograph' of the ship exploding and two of them show virtually the same image except that the blob just in front of the top of the bridge structure has moved appreciably. It was originally thought to be a spot on the negative but DK Brown estimated that two photos had been taken approx 1/8th of a second apart so it is actually likely to be debris from the ship and there were indeed two photos. Obviously the photographers had time to see what was happening and point their cameras in time to capture the developing explosion.

As Geoff says, it is virtually certain thet the shell penetrated Q turret and set off a chain reaction, first exploding the midship magazines and the blast then travelled fore and aft within the ship setting off the forward and aft magazines. Inspection of the wreck shows X turret missing its roof. One would imagine that most of the unfortunate crew were killed instantaneously.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2018, 07:52:15 PM »

Hi Geoff


Thanks for the heads up, I thought there was something amiss- so glad I haven't glued anything to each other yet!
This is my correction of the bridge with the old bridge roof top as comparison, its a full 11mm out from the correct position matching the NMM plans.
 
IMG_2609" border="0 IMG_2610" border="0 IMG_2611" border="0


I've found a interesting picture of Invincible at the Battle of the Falkland Islands which interestingly show how they used the P and Q turrets when engaging the enemy. And finally, the Sambrook plans show a range baffle on the foremast but it says it might not be fitted, well this picture clearly shows that it was! What fun I'm going to have making it for the Battle of Falkland Islands version!


IMG_2612" border="0 IMG_2613" border="0
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2018, 08:01:46 PM »

Those range baffles are interesting as they were designed to confuse the co incidence rangefinders used by the Royal Navy which relied on focussing on a vertical element of the target. But the Germans used stereoscopic rangefinders which entailed bringing two images into sharp focus as viewed by the observer so th RN range baffles were largely irrelevant.

One wonders why the RN were not aware of the different optical basis of the German rangefinders.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2018, 08:17:57 PM »

Itís certainly most interesting, perhaps itís one of those mysteries that only the Navy knew the reasoning behind it. Unless it was used for training gunnery crews whilst underway.
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2018, 04:00:41 PM »

Hi everyone


Beautiful day for ballasting trials and to see if the model sails... there are storm clouds coming!!! >:-o
Dad and I laid the hull into the water and put in the four 12v 10amp/hr SLAs, topped up the water in the foggy units and proceeded with lead being placed in the hull to bring it to the light loaded water-line. Everything ok so far. 20lbs of batteries, and about another 11lbs of lead ballast.
I switched on the foggy units and a good head of fog built up, tx on and then rx, everything ok. A quick blip to ensure the rudders moved ok. A check to ensure that the motors still worked- ok, and in the right direction- ok. Now the angry point...
The motors are gutless, they look like car heater motors, are the same size and behave in every way like a car heater motor but they couldn't pull a skin off a rice pudding!
I adjusted the two ESC for speed and a little more power was gleaned from them but it was truly shocking performance. It took me ten minutes to get her back to the edge of the lake, the only good thing was the good amount of fog being produced from the funnels and the extremely stable hull. She sat there in the light swell like a true 17,000 ton battlecruiser!
No pictures: 1: I forgot and 2: it was incredibly embarrassing especially in front of a new club member!!!


So new plan- new car heater motors replacing the current motors, and fingers crossed next weekend the trials will begin again.
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Nick B

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2018, 04:19:45 PM »

Oh dear Nick,

That account was getting quite exciting, until you wrote about the lack of power in motors.
I feel gutted for you.  Before you got to the motors bit I was fully expecting a gold star maiden voyage.
I know its going to be difficult replacing them whilst at the same time maintaining your careful alignments.

Everyone was trying to convince me to fit four car heater motors in my beasty.  I am now glad I splashed out for Buehlers.

Good luck.  I am sure you will get it sorted  :-))
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2018, 04:56:53 PM »


GRRRR. Don't feel embarrassed Nick. No matter how new or old in the hobby, you will always come across turds that promise to be gold bars. You bought them in good faith. I don't think the motors in my destroyer are up to the job.


If the new member is up himself he will go away glibly and in the long run be of no good to the club. If he is sensible he will learn from the issues you had today and keep in kind what he saw and act upon it when building in the future. These technical things are sent to test us and they often do.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2018, 05:06:40 PM »

Thanks lads


Iíve just taken the useless motors out and borrowed a pair from my Prince George and the size difference is very noticeable- they are almost 50% longer! Now I know these work beautifully as my Prince George goes really well. I just need a new coupling to match up the shafts and itíll fit.
The new member wasnít too bothered about my little mess up and we had a good chat afterwards- he is into big steam models- so we should see some beautiful steam launches soon.
Iíve placed the borrowed motors into position and you can see the length difference with the disconnected couplings.


3_A6041_B4_CB30_4_B89_8_DF8_E1_F8_AC167103" border="0 0_CE56_D8_A_2_C11_48_F8_BA71_850_A8466252_E" border="0
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #143 on: April 22, 2018, 05:12:22 PM »


Oh blow, it now impacts the position of your innards  >:-o Can the original motors be rebuilt, or is that not cost effective? I suppose the parts inside them are all tailored to the winding it was built with?


Are there shorter version of the motors you had in Prince George?
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #144 on: April 22, 2018, 05:23:06 PM »

Speaking to a few club members and they agree that the motors were probably seconds or low quality motors which failed the tests by the manufacturer. I bought them with a kit last year but didnít want to use them in that model.
Iím using the motors from Prince George as a datum as I know they work, the replacement couplings are coming from SHG and it all fits nicely together with very little modifications so some good news at last!
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #145 on: April 22, 2018, 08:34:01 PM »

That is a coup! I saw all sorts of horrors of removing parts and getting smoke machines all matched up again.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #146 on: April 22, 2018, 08:39:11 PM »

Iíve learnt a lot from working on Tornado aircraft! Keep it simple! The Tornado especially isnít! Iíve made sure that individual components are easily replaceable/removable for such disasters. I just didnít expect a nice looking motor would be so poor in performance. My Dreadnought would have out paced her easily!
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #147 on: April 22, 2018, 09:05:08 PM »

Nick,

The motors may have been satisfactory for the use they were intended for, perhaps low drain, low torque but not for the application you needed them for which is the ability to push high resistance water around instead of low resistance air.

Colin
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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #148 on: April 22, 2018, 10:45:00 PM »

Nick...you could shorten the two propeller drive shafts .....ie., fwd of the first pair of U joints. this way little is lost and the take off for the second pair of motors is not affected an

If you looked at the complex mathematical sets of potential angles between a pair of U joints on the same shaft, the element of a change in distance would be minimal in your application

No reason why the U joints cannot be placed back to back on  the one shaft O0

Derek
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kevin547n

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2018, 06:55:46 AM »

Nick...you could shorten the two propeller drive shafts .....ie., fwd of the first pair of U joints. this way little is lost and the take off for the second pair of motors is not affected an

If you looked at the complex mathematical sets of potential angles between a pair of U joints on the same shaft, the element of a change in distance would be minimal in your application

No reason why the U joints cannot be placed back to back on  the one shaft O0

Derek
I now understand why i do static builds, LOL i didn't understand much of that
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