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Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 34964 times)

raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #200 on: October 11, 2018, 10:43:49 PM »

Hi Ian


Oh dear, looks all the dadís are in the wars at the moment. Steve has just been given the all clear, luck it wasnít a blood clot but a severe reaction to the elastic in his new socks! Hope your dad gets better soon.


Iíve just found this interesting and very helpful picture of Invincible circa 1915 showing the bridge structure a bit better... well that looks like itís supported by magic! All those struts!


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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #201 on: November 02, 2018, 08:58:18 AM »

Nick,


Are you planning on being at Warwick both Sat & Sunday?


Cheers


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #202 on: November 02, 2018, 08:59:05 AM »

I also meant to say a very nice picture which helps considerably!


Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #203 on: November 02, 2018, 09:12:58 AM »

Hi Geoff


Iím there all weekend- just look for the biggest battleship on the Wicksteed stand and youíll see my Invincible dwarfed by it!
See you there. :-))
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #204 on: December 09, 2018, 08:23:04 PM »

Hi everyone


A bit of time since my last update. For those who couldn't get to Warwick I'll show you what has been achieved so far. The upper deck is 3/4 planked with lime wood strip. The conning tower deck on the forward superstructure has been remade and the searchlight platform is in temporarily and will probably be remade once everything lines up with the support posts. The forward turret has had its barrels fitted (they can still be removed if necessary)-they will be blended together with some filler later on. The centre turrets have started to be built, this time entirely from scratch as the GRP items would have so little left of the original it wasn't worth it- they could always be used for any later projects!
The new water-tight doors have been painted and glued into position- they are Shapeways 3D printed items and available from a designer called 'Micro Master'.
The rear conning tower has been made from 20mm diameter tube coated in 0.5mm plasticard. The viewing slit has been has been added by extending the roof down and sanding to shape.


IMG-0364" border="0 IMG-0365" border="0 IMG-0366" border="0 IMG-0367" border="0IMG-0368" border="0 IMG-0369" border="0 [url=https://ibb.co/2ggrKKx]IMG-0370" border="0 IMG-0371" border="0
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #205 on: December 09, 2018, 09:50:07 PM »

Lovely. It is interesting to see similarities with the later armoured cruisers in how the boats were stowed.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #206 on: December 10, 2018, 11:06:39 AM »

Lovely. It is interesting to see similarities with the later armoured cruisers in how the boats were stowed.


Yes it certainly is, Geoff and myself were comparing models at Warwick and we quickly discovered some minor differences between our models. Whilst mine is based on the Dreadnought hull, Geoff's is built using the proper drawings for the hull and the biggest difference was the lower sterns- Invincible was based on the natural progression of the armoured cruisers and you can see this in the stern of Invincible. This is more noticeable on Geoff's model as you can see the armoured cruiser stern whilst mine is a hybrid version but closer to Dreadnought for obvious reasons. On the water it isn't so obvious but when displayed next to each other on a club stand it would be noticeable when viewing from the stern.
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #207 on: December 10, 2018, 04:53:35 PM »

Now I'm not sure my maths is right but a 12" 45 calibre gun fires a 850 pound shell with a muzzle velocity of 2,600 feet per secound which equates to 1,772 miles per hour. Zero to 1,772 mph in 45 feet!!


Now a shells speed drops of dramatically with air resistance/range so if we reduce the speed to 1000fps at the end of its flight its still coming in at 681 mph and weighing 850 pounds.


So roughly at 2,000 yeards you will get a flight time of about 60 seconds at 1000fps but as the initial speed was much higher less than half this time of around 30 seconds which seems about right for a range of just over 11 miles.


So if its travelling at 1000fps x 850 = 850,000 foot pounds impact energy which is awsome!!


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #208 on: December 10, 2018, 04:54:18 PM »

Should have been 20,000 yards! Doh!
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #209 on: December 10, 2018, 10:12:58 PM »

Itís scary how fast these projectiles were, I remember reading a book about Warspite firing her guns in WW2 and they used their radar to track the shells on to the target, however the worst was seeing the shells coming back towards them at just under the speed of sound. Iím sure someone said that it took the shells that destroyed Hood just under 30 seconds to travel the 9 miles!
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #210 on: December 10, 2018, 11:21:35 PM »


Destruction doesn't tarry  :(( It still irks me that the designers of both Dreadnoughts and Battle cruisers threw away their knowledge and development evolution in mounting the secondary armament in silly casemates rather than turrets.


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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #211 on: December 11, 2018, 08:58:48 AM »

On page 4 of this blog there is a picture of one of the Indefatigable class battlecrusiers. I'm now convinced that this is HMS New Zealand as on reading German Battlecrusiers of WW1 - Gary Staff (A most excellent book) it comments that Von Der Tann hit New Zealand on the side turret barbette at Jutland and broke a chunk of armour off jaming the turret. The picture clearly shows an armour plate missing but no damage or distortion or scorched paint work so I suspect the damage has been repaired and they are just waiting on the new armour plate to be fitted which makes this a more interesting picture.


Okay secondary gun turrets - the problem was weight high up in the ship and for the early battlecrusiers field of fire. Early secondary turrets also had a lower volume of fire that a broadside battery and were harder to supply with ammunition.


Increased weight high up affected stability so the ship has to be wider which means the area protected by the protective decks is bigger which adds weight which in turn means bigger engines and boilers to maintain speed etc etc so a bigger ship.


With later ships the 6" secondary battery was on the main deck precisly due to stability issues and was therefore prone to "washing out". However once director fire was installed the "washing out" issue disappeared as the guns just followed the pointer which was much more effective.


A more dangerous feature of main deck casemate batteries was their tendency to burn and not having sufficient armout to protect them from heavy fire. It was just enough to detonate an armour piercing shell which if they had no armour would just have passed right through with less damage. They also reduced the watertight boundary due to their embrasures. (Note the US "All or nothing" armour scheme for later battleships which was widkly adopted between the wars). However an "All or Nothing" battleship was never tested in action as it may have proved extreemly vulnarable to high explosive large calibre shells, which is why most battlehips had extensive thiner armour to defeat such projectiles.


However we need to reflect on their purpose. They were intended to smother enemy battleships unprotected positions as well as look to take out the enemy secondary battery and be an anti torpedo battery. If you have lost your secondary battery then its harder to fend of a torpedo attack.


Ultimatley turrets were the better solution as they gave better weather protection and higher control but they were on bigger ships which could take the weight.


Cheers




Geoff
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #212 on: December 11, 2018, 04:36:29 PM »

Nick,

The January issue of Model Boats has your photo in front of Invincible at Warwick in it. I dodn't think I sent you a copy of the original image - if you would like one pm me your email.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #213 on: December 11, 2018, 08:31:17 PM »

Hi Colin


Many thanks, PM sent.


Regards


Nick
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #214 on: December 19, 2018, 05:56:22 PM »

Hi everyone


A nice surprise being stood down early for Christmas  :-))
Gave me the opportunity to finish the upper deck planking this afternoon, certainly changes the appearance of the model with the vast area of deck planked in, just the quarter deck to go.


583693-FB-F755-4-DF2-B1-D0-52-B6-B60-AFA19" border="0 B1-C14446-064-D-4-B62-BF27-1-F3-DADD01-E52" border="0 63821-EC6-67-DE-45-C1-BDB4-34-CBC2-A9-D8-DC" border="0 53279-D09-C05-C-40-B6-BB0-B-0-D8-FF2378618" border="0
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Nick B

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Mackenzie

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #215 on: December 24, 2018, 12:36:50 AM »

Hi Nick

Your planking really sets the model off.
I have never been successful planking decks.
Could you give short summary how you achieved such finish and glues used

Re
Jim Mackenzie
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #216 on: December 24, 2018, 09:29:31 PM »

Hi Jim


Iíll give a tutorial when I start the quarter deck on Boxing Day for you, this is my fifth model Iíve planked this way and I seem to be getting better with each model which shocks me! %)
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #217 on: January 02, 2019, 08:31:45 PM »

Hi there


Sorry about the delay in the tutorial but things got in the way, the first one was that my poor dog Bru was badly bitten by another dog and is rather unwell from the experience so weíve been looking after him, and secondly Iíve been working another model boat which will appear in the next issue of Model Boats magazine- a four parter which took a little longer to complete than anticipated.
I digress however and Iíll get every thing together in the next couple of days to show how I plank my models.
Hopefully nothing pops up to get in the way! :-)
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #218 on: January 03, 2019, 08:54:56 AM »

I will look forward to reading your article Nick. Being a four parter suggests it is going to be an impressive project. I hope it is the first of many articles for the magazine.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #219 on: January 03, 2019, 11:30:32 AM »

Iím trying my best with this first four parter, Iíve already been asked to think of another model for another article series. Hopefully everyone will find it interesting and entertaining.
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #220 on: March 05, 2019, 08:56:04 AM »

Nick,


I have a question I can't quite figure out. On the plans the director control tower (below the foretop) is very close to the mast. Also there are railings round the director, so how do the crew get there and get in?


There seems no access point from below as there would need to be ladders etc and the route would be too dangerous. There seems little room for any doors between the director and the mast?


My conclusion is there may be sliding doors on the front of the mast and the rear of the director. Sliding doors mean very little space is required and may just permit access to the walkway round the director.


Unless you have any suggestions to the contrary that is how I'm representing both. It kind of makes sense as the smaller the gap the less the overhang on the director platform which in turn would reduce vibration to sensitive equipment.


Nothing is really shown on the original plans (British Battlecrusiers) that I can distinguish but I can't see how else it could work. When building a model its always wise to take a view on how the crew got to a certain point - there has to be an access route of some kind.


As an update on my Invincible I have completed planking the deck and spend hours scraping it down with stanley knife blades - just a few more hours to go! If you haven't tried this method it produces an incredibly smooth satin finish. I'll post some pictures on my thred shortly.


Cheers


Geoff

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #221 on: March 05, 2019, 10:24:40 AM »

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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #222 on: March 05, 2019, 01:28:48 PM »

Geoff, What time frame are you modeling? I ask because Inflexible's appearance changes list several relating to the Director control top. R A Burt's work on RN battleships shows several plans that show access to the foretop by external ladder. The director control  top platform fitted in 1914 appears quite a bit larger than the former search lite platform and may have been accessed by the external ladders running up the mast. Was it possible that a VL ran from the fore top down to the director control platform?I can scan this info and send it to you if you like.Jonathan
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #223 on: March 05, 2019, 01:37:00 PM »

Colin,


Thank you, very interesting. I had not seen either of these shots before. To some extent it almost adds to the question as the first one shown Inflexible with a searchlight platform under the foretop as the director platform was both bigger and a little lower down so whilst it shows ladders I still can't quite see how they work, unless they are comming down from the foretop which is a possibility. However if that is right how do they get into the director - doors on each side maybe and why arn't the ladders shown on the plans?


The second shot indeed shows ladders on the outside of the legs but these go up to the foretop and not the director platform. The original plans are not thet helpfull either but clearly some further research is needed.


Cheers


Geoff
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Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #224 on: March 05, 2019, 01:41:59 PM »

Jonathan,


Yes please as any info would be helpfull. Inflexible did indeed have differences in the modifications. The front on shot clearly shows the 4" guns moved next to the conning tower touch the sides of the conning tower. With Invincible there is a discernable gap and also there is a ledge that crosses in front of the conning tower which is not on Inflexible.


I'm building Invincible in 1914 so with equal height funnels and tall top masts and the 4" plated in (on the foreward superstructure)


Cheers


Geoff
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