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[Akira]

I am looking for information regarding with Camouflage pattern was applied to this ship, HMS Larkspur, and what the colors would have been.
Any help is greatly appreciated. The photographs are dated 1942.
Thank You.
Jonathan

[derekwarner]

Jonathan ............ Google will help you with most answers you have...it appears the vessel spent time in the Command of the US.....so the time line around 1942 will dictate the outcome....

You will also note her as HMS Larkspur or British Pennant was K82, however the US Pennant number was PG69, so from your photographs the colour scheme you are after will be that of the US Fury PG69..................Derek
_________________________________________

Navy The Royal Navy
Type Corvette
Class Flower 
Pennant K 82 -  HMS Larkspur
Built by Fleming & Ferguson Ltd. (Paisley, Scotland) 
Ordered 31 Aug 1939 
Laid down 26 Mar 1940 
Launched 5 Sep 1940 
Commissioned 4 Jan 1941 
End service 17 Mar 1942 
History
Transferred to the USN on 17 March 1942.
 Returned on 22 August 1945.
 Sold on 22 July 1946.
 Became the mechantile Larkslock.
 Scrapped at Hong Kong in 1953. 
 
Career notes To the United States Navy as USS Fury

[Akira]

Derek,
 Yes you are correct about her being transferred to the USN. I also agree with you that this is probably a USN camo scheme, although I am not familiar with it. I will have to do some more digging. Thanks for your input.

[Klunk]

This might help
http://www.cbrnp.com/RNP/Flower/contents.htm

[RAAArtyGunner]

Klunk,

Very good reference but some of the links no longer work as the domains have expired.

However still a lot of good stuff to be had.

[Akira]

Klunk,
 Great resource. Thank You. It backs up information on NavSource.org which lists all Flowers operated by the USN and the US Coast Guard. They were classified as PG's, Patrol Gunboats.
Thank You
Jonathan

[Akira]

The closest pattern that I have been able to find to the pictures is MS 33. Interestingly this measure was not applied to USN ships until 1944. Notes indicate that is was very similar, probably based upon, a RN pattern. Perhaps, the RN painted their "loaners" prior to turning them over to the USN. Too bad we did not reciprocate.

[mudway]

I would suspect that she is in RN colours for two reasons.
First, the IWM photo says she was handed over to the USN and the photo is off Liverpool. Second, Lotus seen here in 1942 is in a similar scheme.
 If so, white, WA Blue and Green would be the likely colours.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Skip to the end of this BMW video... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzUFCQ-P1Zg

 

[Stan]

Hope this may help.

Stan.

[TailUK]

 The paint scheme used is the Thayer system very similar  to the so called "Western Approaches" scheme using white as a base. Over this could be any one of a number of camouflage colours from the Thayer palette colours.  In this picture of a very nice model the scheme is shown to very effect.

I posted a chart of  RN colour chips in this thread.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55687.msg577672.html#msg577672

and although there seems to be new thoughts on the validity of these colours it's a good place to start.

[Jonty]

  The photos were almost certainly taken on orthochromatic film. This responds more to blue and green, so those colours appear much darker. You see the same effect sometimes in pictures of aircraft where the RAF roundel appears to have a black surround instead of yellow.

  These are standard early Western Approaches schemes using white, pale green, and pale blue.

[Akira]

Jonty,
 Thank you. I like it! Looking at the photos and other reference sources, I would guess the colors would arrange on the photos as thus, the lightest white, the darkest green and the mid tone blue. Do you agree?
Jonathan

[Jonty]

  Not sure, to be honest. Ortho is more sensitive to blue than green, so I think the darkest tone would be the blue.

[Akira]

Would the mid tone blue be similar to the blue in the attached? I am guessing that the green would be as well.
Thanks for your input.

[mudway]

They are paler than that and the green looks more like a peppermint colour.

[Stan]

PM sent ref paints.


Stan.

[Jonty]

  Agree with Mudway, colours too intense, they should appear really washed out.

  White Ensign do these colours ready to use.

  For Vallejo see:
    https://app.box.com/s/2hz3x8hp57kqk8qqyu40y0lndkdnc696

[Stan]

White Ensign ceased  trading well 2 years ago. The range of paints is now supplied under the Sovereign Hobbies brand name. Details of U S stockists sent on this morning.

Stan.

[Akira]

Stan and Jonty,
 Thank you both. I agree with the comments about the washing out of colors, the USN learned that very quickly in the Pacific, especially with Blues and Purples. I would like opinions as to wether the Blue would be WA Blue or perhaps Alternate WA Blue.. I have not had the chance to track each down yet, so I ask first.
Again, Thank you to all for your input and assistance.
Jonathan

[Jonty]

  I think "Alternate WA Blue" is a fiction, maybe just another Vallejo colour that approximates to the original. (Use of the word "alternate" rather than "alternative" suggests an American coinage - and a recent one at that). Or maybe it stems from B55, the later designation for WAB, becoming a light tan of the same tone due to shortage of blue pigment.

  The fact that these paints were mixed up on the ships from their constituents suggests quite large variations in colour and tone. And that's before the weather started to play its part. The best we can aim for is a model that conveys the idea of the original and is pleasing to the eye.

[Akira]

Jonty,
 I am in full agreement with you in all respects. The USN operated in the same vein, ie, mixing aboard ships, often with what ever stocks were available. It often resulted in some very unusual colors and schemes.
jonathan

[mudway]

The original WA Green and Blue could have been mixed onboard but unlikely on a small ship such as a trawler. The later B & G series could well have been delivered premixed to the ships as AFOs show paint companies who supplied the RN with their paint.


FYI, from the 1920s onward, both the RN & RAN used commercial paint companies for paint as well as supplying ships with pre mixed paint made up in the dockyards.


The formula issued by the RAN for B55 in 1943 was unchanged in 1945, nothing in the formulae would make it tan. My understanding is that green pigment was in short availability, hence the various AFOs concerning its use and dropping of WA Green in 1943. The tan G45 ans B55 seem to be a naval urban myth.

[Akira]

Mudway,
 Thank you for the information. I agree with your points. Clearly paints applied by yards and builders were more consistent that those mixed and applied by the deck force, RN, RAN and USN.  Despite standards, each manufacturer varied minutely as well.
Now that I have the basic colors and pattern involved, I think that I am good to go. Just need the time to get to work.
Jonathan

[NickelBelter]

Skip to the end of this BMW video... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzUFCQ-P1Zg

 

Thought i recognized that camo pattern... unfortunately, it isn't a WW2 dazzle scheme at all!      That's Toronto Drydock's floating drydock, converted from a post-WW2 bulk carrier.  The commercial must've been filmed in Toronto.