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Author Topic: Buzzy motors.  (Read 3424 times)

Mike Fry

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Buzzy motors.
« on: June 27, 2017, 07:29:51 pm »

Hello Gentelmen.
That whine/buzz noise from DC motors at low speed. Is there a ESC, motor combination that does not do it?
Yes it sounds like i am being too fussy i know, i have just started a rebuild of a 1/96 scale type 42. It looks and goes well it has a unknown ESC and a Deans Kite motor. I have found Mtroniks ESCs buzz well, i have eight, but not when used with a big old car fan motor.
I know its some sort of frequency thingy thing going on, between ESC and motor. I could put a box around the thing, any ideas?
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Sindbad

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 04:11:29 am »


I am looking for an answer to this too. Being a steam guy, this is new to me. The noise is unbearable from a Graupner Speed 600 8.4v Electric Motor, driven by a 2 cell lipo via a WP 1040 60A Waterproof Brushed ESC Controller.

Answers from ladies and gentlemen also welcome.
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roycv

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 07:00:46 am »

Hi, you could go back to older technology with a resistance type speed contoller operated by a servo.  Bob's boards may still be available.
regards Roy
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John W E

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 10:11:55 am »

Hi there Can you recall the days gone bye - when the old telly had a high pitched whistle and the telly repair man used to remove the back of the telly and borrow some of the wife or boyfriend's nail varnish and put a dab of the nail varnish on the high tension coil :-) reducing the coils vribrating - I wonder if this trick would work on a model DC electric motor?   as that is what causes the noise i.e. slack windings vibrating (so the experts say :-)  )   try this trick but don't get any varnish on the armature.   This  may just work.   %)

John
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Tug-Kenny RIP

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 10:16:39 am »

This is an age old problem that has annoyed folks for some time.  Explanations abound throughout the forum.

I experimented when I had the problem and came up with  'insulation'.

That is to say I surrounded the motor with thick piano felt like a blanket and even mounted it onto felt pads with lock nuts on loose screws.  It did reduce the whine considerably and does not notice  'out on the lake'

Hope this helps.

ken
 
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Sindbad

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 11:58:33 am »

Thanks for all the advice, I have followed up some of the links and established its nothing to do with motor mountings, shaft alignment etc because the hum starts before the motor rotates.

Roberts (Bobs) boards are extinct, but resistance boards waste power by creating heat, must be perfectly matched to the motor and control in steps.

Therefore the problem is frequency resonating, caused by a mismatch between the ESC frequency and the motor windings.

This does not have to be a problem because I have a DC extractor fan in my camper which has speed and direction controlled by a Pulse Width controller from Maplins and its as silent as the grave.

Suppliers of these items should make this information available so that customers can make informed choices. Or better still they could state which items are compatible. However my inclination is to turn my back on the model industry and source a disused car heater motor, and another Maplins Pulse Width controller.

I understand these motor bearings are designed for one direction only, but apart from that, can anyone foresee a problem with this approach?

In the long term I have an electronic guru friend who is designing a miniature computer to provide all the electronic functions of complex models. I will add this need to the long list of functions I have asked him to incorporate in it.
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roycv

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 02:20:06 pm »

I will answer para 2.  Yes we know they get warm as did esc's before the current amplification went over to field effect transistors.  I have had to run a cooling element to an early Electronize esc.  They do not buzz, due to the frame frequency 50Htz (probably there but not noticeable) being used as prf, but there is a drop in the voltage available due to the emitter base resistance.  Modern esc's tend to have a prf of 400 Htz.

I am told that Bob's boards can be obtained from www.modelflightaccssories.com  However I will leave you to find them.

 How you can hear a buzz when the boat is a few yards away I do not know.

 I am sure the model industry will regret not being able to supply your needs.  I have designed a few circuits myself, even one steam related.  I wish you luck in your quest, you might want to try Aduino circuitry?
Industrial  motors can have the commutator armature angles set for optimum performance, however I have not before heard of bearings with a preferred direction of rotation.
You will find little difference in running a blower motor forward or backward unless of course you have a field wound one where you will have to alter the wiring configuration of the motor to get it to reverse.

Roy

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C-3PO

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 02:55:53 pm »

However my inclination is to turn my back on the model industry and source a disused car heater motor, and another Maplins Pulse Width controller.

I understand these motor bearings are designed for one direction only, but apart from that, can anyone foresee a problem with this approach?


Sinbad - is the Maplin product you refer to this http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/kemo-10a-pwm-power-controller-n80ql

If so how are you going to connect this to your radio control receiver?

Regards
C-3PO
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HMS Invisible

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 03:12:53 pm »


Sinbad - is the Maplin product you refer to this http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/kemo-10a-pwm-power-controller-n80ql

If so how are you going to connect this to your radio control receiver?

Regards
C-3PO
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Looks like a beefed up 555 circuit doesn't it?
There is a full 0-100%, 20 amp version at 60 quid. It is also single direction and around 400Hz.
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inertia

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2017, 03:25:49 pm »

Maplin 10A speed controller is discontinued. £60 for a 20A brushed motor ESC is a silly price to pay.
ACTion P79/P80 are low frequency ESC's (50Hz) which just "growl" a little on starting. "S" versions are for motors with more than 5 poles. More on Component Shop website.
DM

http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/speed.html
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Sindbad

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2017, 05:28:40 pm »

  Modern esc's tend to have a prf of 400 Htz.


Thanks Roy thats the sort of information I need but I dont see it in the model retail world. How do I obtain it for individual products?
The link you posted is dead, but I dont want to go down the resistance road anyway.

Maplins do quote their frequencies but I can no longer see a suitable item in their stock list.

From my  research of the links above it appears an ESC operating between 500Hz and 3kHz would tick all my boxes. It appears I may need to contact all the manufacturers for this piece of product information. Model retailers Ive asked so far, dont know.

The bearing direction information I read, referred to the thrust bracing. But when I think about it that shouldn't matter if everything is securely mounted.

As for the noise level; it is not always "a few yards away", especially when in an exhibition display pond, where it would spoil my carefully orchestrated sound effects.
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HMS Invisible

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2017, 07:33:15 pm »


Thanks Roy thats the sort of information I need but I dont see it in the model retail world. How do I obtain it for individual products?
I can confirm a pulse repetition frequency of 1kHz ( a common figure) that I read online for your unbearably noisy WP 1040 60A.
Other Chinese escs came out at 1.2kHz where their instructions said 2kHz an that the low end control was absent as they are programmed to start at 20% duty cycle.

From my  research of the links above it appears an ESC operating between 500Hz and 3kHz would tick all my boxes.
At the same time as I tested the unmarked Chinese and WP 1040 60A I repeated  motor and esc p.r.f. rates done many years ago. I just transferred connections from the test escs to an esc with 500, 1k, 2k & 4kHz frequencies  Different sizes of unmodified 280 to 500 size motors are quietest at different rates.
  For complete silence from an unmodified copper winding the p.r.f. has to be above electrical resonance to iron out the current from 40 amp (typically) abrupt on/off pulses found at low p.r.f. to dc+ripple at very high p.r.f.  It is relatively low for car fan motors but reliable circuitry is too complex and bulky for small budget escs.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2017, 04:31:55 am »


As for the noise level; it is not always "a few yards away", especially when in an exhibition display pond, where it would spoil my carefully orchestrated sound effects.

Can you adjust the orchestration to suit  %) %)
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 10:16:54 am »

In telephony the traditional human hearing response band is 300Hz to 3KHz.  That is what telephone systems have long been designed to carry.  My old level measuring set used 800 and 1600Hz as its test values, those defining the band that humans generally hear best.  HiFi systems spread considerably each end, as do peoples abilities to hear higher frequencies.  Lower frequencies rarely upset anybody, 50Hz corresponded nicely with the normal frame rate of RC systems and didn't need too much in the way of circuitry to work.  Higher frequencies in the audio range will be more noticeable if the motor is susceptible to respond to them.  Using even higher frequencies will depend on the ability of the hardware in the control chip to provide a useful output at that rate.  Probably waiting for the day when PIC chips operate in the GHz range.

The basic problem is that any motor has the same components as a loudspeaker, and given a suitable signal, will respond like one.  The noise either comes from the armature responding to the PWM signal by modulating its rotation with a vibration, or the windings moving on the armature.  Full size motors, at the end of the winding process, get their armatures dunked in a vat of varnish (but keeping it off the commutator).  When dried and set, they are relatively quiet.  While this can be done on a model size motor, a problem arises in that a smaller mass needs less force to make it move, so model size motors are inherently more liable to respond to the control signal.
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roycv

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 10:45:41 am »

Hi Malcolm not thought of it like that before, nice one!
regards Roy
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HMS Invisible

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2017, 04:18:46 pm »


...Probably waiting for the day when PIC chips operate in the GHz range...
The two limiting factors (that keep pwm frequency below that needed for whine-free dc current output) are cost and the bulk of additional components.  I could do it with the same mid-range 8-bit PIC I use but have limited the user-programmable setting to a maximum of 4kHz.
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Mike Fry

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Re: Buzzy motors.
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2017, 04:40:18 pm »

Hello
Well that was some interesting information, thank you. I think the simple way is to put a sound proof box around the motor, yes given size and weight and maybe heat. Then again brushless motors have different set of noises.
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