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Author Topic: petrol and diesel car ban  (Read 4535 times)

roycv

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2017, 09:01:35 AM »

Hi you do wonder at who various governments get their advice from.  I remember maybe 40 years ago we heard that an idiot as far as we were concerned, who we had known from work (IT) was advising the government on future IT strategy.
It is interesting to see areas where the government has a current crisis, then to check who the minister is and see what his last appointment was!
(Is this going to upset anybody)?
regards Roy
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dougal99

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2017, 09:14:37 AM »

This is getting dangerously close to a political argument. Not for this site I think.  :police:
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JIM WORNER

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2017, 09:16:45 AM »

Question; could it not be possible to upgrade existing cars to multi-fuel?
Design and manufacture replacement wheel hub/brake assembles with a brushless motor-disk arrangement, add extra batteries and a revised engine control unit.  That way we would be low emissions in town and still have range.
If any one does it I waive my right to design fees!
Jim
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ChrisF

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2017, 11:20:05 AM »

Tug F - Absolutely.

And as with driverless cars, despite what is spouted in the media and cars increasingly being fitted with driving aids I firmly believe that realistically both are a very long way off and won't happen whilst I'm still driving or even during my lifetime, I'm 63.

There are too many issues and problems to be overcome.

Trouble is with electric cars is that it's the manufacturers who are pushing things forward and as said the government seem to be doing little in the way of forward planning. 
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Arrow5

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2017, 04:12:05 PM »

Back to ships. Someone I`m sure has calculated the equivalent number of cars that would run for how many miles ( to the moon and back etc ?) that the average cruise ship or container ship , from China to Europe for example. would use. Different fuel of course, but big polluters. What size battery for an electric Emma Maersk !!!?     At the other end of the scale my ED Bee runs on clean paraffin, castor oil and ether. Internal combustion isn't dead yet, dope burning F1 cars would be OK by me, electric F1...NOPE !   Any thought on shipping polluters ?
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dodes

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2017, 04:18:59 PM »

Well I think the Aussie's will solve it with Fosters 4x, if the TV ads are anything to go by, but then you can go back to horses at least they can take you home by themselves. But have seen an article not long ago of the new tech of recharging batteries by radio waves, when you are driving.
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roycv

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2017, 04:22:00 PM »

Hi arrows, I think the big commercial ships are going over to gas for propulsion.
Roy
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Netleyned

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2017, 04:30:09 PM »

Gas is a fossil fuel
Air Travel won't go with any other fuel
Ned
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2017, 06:46:09 PM »



Hi arrows, I think the big commercial ships are going over to gas for propulsion.
Roy


I guess that they are probably ideal for LNG. Very few people seem to know what LNG is yet but I am sure that we are going to hear a lot more about it in the future.


As it is basically non flammable I would not be that surprised about aircraft use either.
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Buccaneer

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2017, 07:20:36 PM »

It depends what article you read in which paper or website. Yes, it is only new cars that must be electric but one interpretation I have read also quotes Hybrids as being ok. This solves the problem of having charging points in blocks of flats or terrace houses with no parking.

Back to the 1950's and the Deltic Diesel?

John
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malcolmfrary

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2017, 08:22:54 PM »



I guess that they are probably ideal for LNG. Very few people seem to know what LNG is yet but I am sure that we are going to hear a lot more about it in the future.


As it is basically non flammable I would not be that surprised about aircraft use either.
It is less flammable than petrol, but only when contained as a liquid.  When it vapourises in air, it is every bit as dangerous as anything else.  Otherwise, it would be useless as a fuel.
Interesting reading - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas
The thinking behind phasing out production of new fuel burners is simple enough - that is the biggest sector.  The classics will remain a very small minority.  How many classics are still running around that needed leaded petrol?  I expect any running survivors have been converted.  I do know that BTs fleet of Maestro vans was converted but the Itals and Vivas were disposed of before leaded was phased out at the firms pumps.
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2017, 08:27:38 PM »




It is less flammable than petrol, but only when contained as a liquid.  When it vapourises in air, it is every bit as dangerous as anything else.  Otherwise, it would be useless as a fuel.
Interesting reading - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas
The thinking behind phasing out production of new fuel burners is simple enough - that is the biggest sector.  The classics will remain a very small minority.  How many classics are still running around that needed leaded petrol?  I expect any running survivors have been converted.  I do know that BTs fleet of Maestro vans was converted but the Itals and Vivas were disposed of before leaded was phased out at the firms pumps.


These two make interesting reading

https://www.portofrotterdam.com/en/cargo-industry/lng-liquefied-natural-gas/lng-as-a-fuel-for-vessels-and-trucks

http://breakingenergy.com/2014/12/22/how-dangerous-is-lng/

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dodes

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2017, 09:58:42 PM »

What about methane gas, I was reading recently that the Chinese and Indians are very interested in it, apparently in the South China seas there is enough frozen  gas to meet the worlds future energy needs for 80 to 20,000 years.!
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malcolmfrary

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2017, 09:35:28 AM »

The one thing about using fossil fuels that their fans forget is that to use them, we lose oxygen from the atmosphere.  I don't know about the CEOs of fuel companies who have a short term vested interest in their use, but I do like to breathe.  The fossil fuels were laid down millions of years ago in a process that took carbon out of the atmosphere and released oxygen creating an atmosphere that we could breathe.  Reversing that process as rapidly as we are doing is not good.

LNG properly contained is a lot safer than conventional fuels, but so far is only used either industrially, where proper safeguards are possible or by a small minority of users in vehicles.  In both cases, users are (hopefully) trained in its safe handling.  Making it a common use item will expose it to the lowest common denominator of the public, where "reading the instructions" and good sense are considered optional.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2017, 09:58:31 AM »

Somebody once remarked that if petrol had just been invented it would be immediately banned on safety grounds.

Colin
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2017, 10:53:15 AM »



......................LNG properly contained is a lot safer than conventional fuels, but so far is only used either industrially, where proper safeguards are possible or by a small minority of users in vehicles.  In both cases, users are (hopefully) trained in its safe handling.  Making it a common use item will expose it to the lowest common denominator of the public, where "reading the instructions" and good sense are considered optional.


LNG will never be a lowest denominator fuel if only because of the necessity to store it at -170C. It is however  ideal for ships, trucks and buses and other uses where it is used relatively quickly. I know that it produces CO2 & that it uses oxygen but it has not particulate emission and it evaporates leaving no residue. I wish all the buses around here used it.


It will also only burn in very specific conditions so it is safe. We will be hearing a lot more about LNG in the near future as there are very large reserves of it that have so far been little exploited. Like all the "solutions" it is something to add into the mix rather than the complete answer.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2017, 05:14:55 PM »


I am still waiting for the Hydrogen Revolution that I first read about in the 70s. when you burn it as a fuel or use it in a fuel cell the end result is water. The original article said we could generate if from a number of sources, store it and convert it back to electricity when we needed it.
Gerald.

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ballastanksian

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2017, 05:36:32 PM »

Governments will look at the technology, look at what makes it tick and then put a duty on consumable materials and disposal charges on any pollutants (if any).

So, in this case, the Bismuth-ION will have a duty put on it probably at the price per litre level, and they will put charges on the replaceable filters if the process of filtration produces any toxic compounds.

They were taking about energy storage this last couple of weeks on the news and I saw a method whereby air was compressed by wind generators to propell generating machinery when there was little or no wind to generate.

On the subject of ships, surely the electrolytic effect of two metals in salt water could be enhanced to drive motors to propel a ship?
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Steve Dean

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2017, 05:37:30 PM »

5 prize money for the first person on this Forum who can figure out how to peel Hydrogen off stuff for free !!!!!!

Just to stir the pot a bit more ......... did you hear that whilst the announcement was being made about electric vehicles, the aviation industry stated that the UK experienced it's highest number of flights in a single day. AND they now want a radical overhaul of the Air Traffic Control System so as the number of flights can be dramatically increased. You couldn't make it up!

Tomorrow I'm going to sail my yacht ....... wind power is bliss !
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markjames68

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2017, 06:21:02 PM »

This is one of those stupid no news events
The government have probably spent millions working up to this declaration, and here are the BUTS as i see them, ( bet my ass they dont have an answer tho)


Second hand car prices will rocket i recon, as will speculative purchase of cars that can be sold second hand, might be worth hanging on to your old bangers..


The idiots in charge get 5 % of all tax income from fuel, i can only assume they will tax the electricity you charge your car with as they can ill afford to lose the income.
The one thing that for me maks it a no news event, in 23 years, manufuacturers probably wont be making petrol cars anyway, the advances in batteries over the last 5 years has been amazing, ( LiPo), electric cars are torquier ergo faster.. ( not sure the idiots in charge will have included hybrids in their ban)


It just seems like a pointless declaration
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malcolmfrary

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2017, 07:41:18 PM »


On the subject of ships, surely the electrolytic effect of two metals in salt water could be enhanced to drive motors to propel a ship?
First you have to capture it, next the hydrogen bubbles are the result of a chemical reaction which involves loss of the metal electrodes (like the area of the doors near the hinges on early Minis) so you have to keep replacing the metal, probably paying somebody for it along the way.  Then you have to get rid of the salts produced, preferably without leaving a trail of toxic chemicals in the wake.  And, of course, to make enough hydrogen to be any use, the setup will need to be powered by a generator.  Since the process is not particularly efficient, the generator will use more fuel than a straight fuel burner.  Its the old perpetual motion chestnut.
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roycv

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2017, 08:14:18 PM »

Hi all, we do not really 'make' hydrogen but release it from its bondage with oxygen.  So hopefully there will be a bit more oxygen about?
Roy
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plastic

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2017, 11:20:23 AM »

Sounds like the UK is going to end up like the 3rd world or Cuba with a sub-culture of ancient vehicles and converted small-holding equipment running of chip-fat like something off The Good Life.

I can only assume that the government will steal all the lost tax by heavily taxing electricity (smart meters are for billing by the second) and implementing GPS-based pay-per-mile taxes. It all boils down to another income tax - it's mainly people going to work or using vehicles for work that will pay the bulk as 'peak pricing' will be in the rush hours. the non-working can afford to drive around off-peak.
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ChrisF

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2017, 12:01:57 PM »

As we've said all this is going to create some big headaches for government. Currently there is a clear division between fuel used for vehicles and that for domestic use and it is easy to tax the motorist.

No doubt, increasingly, those with a bit of land will be fitting solar panels and wind turbines to charge their cars up so a system to fairly tax them and those without that option will be interesting.

And no doubt the "theft" of electricity will become a bigger problem in the future.

it's going to be, well is, a quandary for government. On the one hand electric cars are good for the environment and they welcome them but the electricity production and taxation they will not and if they get the taxation wrong it could actually stall the implementation of electric vehicles rather than encouraging them.

The cost of the cars is also going to be an issue as the subsidy for buying will disappear once they become mainstream and the cost needs to come down in line with petrol/diesel cars.
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IanJ

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Re: petrol and diesel car ban
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2017, 12:42:01 PM »

Why don't we all use VW's they are all environmentally friendly and don't pollute, I've certificate to prove it, sorted!
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