Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: USS John S McCain  (Read 4569 times)

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,034
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

DavieTait

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,114
  • Location: Fraserburgh
    • Trawlerphotos
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2017, 03:52:16 PM »

1 is incompetence 2 is either command crew training is seriously deficient or malicious actions

It is "interesting" that BOTH of these DDG's are fully equipped as Anti-Ballistic Missile defence ships and were both deployed to defend Japan / Korea and now BOTH have had "accidents"/"incidents" that mean loss of life and both ships out of action for a minimum of a year each

Personally I don't buy into coincidence like this , so its either bridge officer training is seriously sub-standard ( very possible ) or someone decided to do this on purpose ( and it would have to be someone on the bridge of the DDG's as well )
Logged
Davie Tait,
Scotland
Site Admin www.trawlerphotos.co.uk

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,277
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2017, 04:24:30 PM »

There is a report out already on the Fitzgerald which essentially blames the Captain, Exec, senior enlisted man and other crew members for poor training and situational awareness.

http://www.secnav.navy.mil/foia/readingroom/HotTopics/USS%20Fitzgerald/Supplemental%20Inquiry%20USS%20Fitzgerald.pdf

We'll have to wait and see what happened with the McCain but I doubt if it was North Korean agents on the bridge. Flying in over Singapore a few years back you can see that the area outside the port is wall to wall with anchored and moving ships. Must be a navigational nightmare if you are trying to thread your way through them.

Warships are always getting themselves into tricky situations but fortunately they are usually low profile incidents and don't involve loss of life. Obviously any navy prefers to keep its mistakes 'in house' if at all possible.

I imagine there was a lot of relief when HMS Queen Elizabeth tied up alongside last week. A mistake then would have been very embarrassing indeed.

Colin
Logged

gingyer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,517
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 05:27:12 PM »

1 is incompetence 2 is either command crew training is seriously deficient or malicious actions



What is 4 then???


USS Fitzgerald collided with that container ship
USS Lake Champlain (Ticonderoga class cruiser) collided with a fishing boat (May 17)
USS Louisiana (Ohio Class sub) collided with OSV (Aug 16)



Logged

DavieTait

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,114
  • Location: Fraserburgh
    • Trawlerphotos
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 05:40:48 PM »

Looks like institutional incompetence in the training of deck officers , USN is huge compared to any other in the world so you'd think they would "get" safety and put in place thorough training and ongoing assessments of officers to prevent incidents like this.

Have to admit I hadn't heard about the other 2 incidents so this does really look like very poor training , Singapore roads are renowned for incidents on an almost daily occurrence simply down to the amount of vessels at anchor , in port or transiting the area.
Logged
Davie Tait,
Scotland
Site Admin www.trawlerphotos.co.uk

DavieTait

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,114
  • Location: Fraserburgh
    • Trawlerphotos
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 05:42:42 PM »

Colin not saying it was anyone linked to North Korea / China ( who lets face it will be very happy these two assets are out of commission ) but the actions of people who for whatever reason decide to cause an incident. Wouldn't be the first time ill intent was behind collisions
Logged
Davie Tait,
Scotland
Site Admin www.trawlerphotos.co.uk

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,277
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 05:52:48 PM »

More likely to be incompetence as you say above Davie. There would be several people on the bridge of a large warship at all times, especially at night in congested waters so it seems unlikely that any one person could cause the ship to go off course. Plus I think there are automated radar collision warnings. USN has apparently initiated a general investigation into proficiency standards.

Colin
Logged

BFSMP

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,108
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Knott End on Sea
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 06:38:47 PM »


sadly men have died in this accident, but either arrogance or incompetence to blame, it reminds me of the gung ho! stance that the American navy seems to take in ever increasing measures, and reminds me of this little  parody seen on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYsdUgEgJrY




Jim.



Logged
life is like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic!

Shipmate60

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,264
  • You bark - I will bite!!!
  • Location: Fareham
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 07:24:09 PM »

I am beginning to wonder if this is an actual recording!!


Bob
Logged
Officially a GOG.

DavieTait

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,114
  • Location: Fraserburgh
    • Trawlerphotos
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 07:45:45 PM »

Logged
Davie Tait,
Scotland
Site Admin www.trawlerphotos.co.uk

kinmel

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 652
  • Colwyn Bay M.B.C.
  • Location: Conwy, in sunny north Wales
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 08:46:34 PM »

One assumes that in that part of the world USA warships would recognise the likelihood of a sudden attack by a small vessel, especially after the attack on USS Cole.

So how come a 50,000 tonne ship arrived unnoticed ?
Logged

dodes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 639
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 09:20:06 PM »

It was not all that long ago that our navy was the moving targets, Southampton, Northampton , Invincible, Boxer plus a couple of Subs grounding when dived. We do not know what was actually happening on the warships ! to take there watch of the surrounding area. Just feel sorry for the sailors who had to pay the price.
Logged

McGherkin

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Plymouth
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 11:01:20 PM »

In this case, simply looking at the damage on the ships, the container ship would be at fault. Give way to vessels crossing from starboard, as per COLREGs. Of course it could be a lot more complex than that, what with draft constraints, RAM, NUC, TSS lanes and so on. Regardless though the rules are very clear that you have a responsibility to avoid a collision, even if you're in the right. I suspect that there will be a lot of repercussions as a result even if the container ship is the one that ultimately carries the can.

With the Fitzgerald it was at fault according to COLREGS, if I remember correctly.
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,034
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 12:07:18 AM »

Why does the USS John S McCain have her Fwd 5" gun facing hard over to Stdb? and depressed ~~ say 15 degrees? :o...

USN protocol for these vessels is that the mounting face 0 degrees or Fwd and elevated by ~~ 22 degrees when not in use

I am sure there must be a reason.....just not sure what this can be...........
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

warspite

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,688
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2017, 12:43:57 PM »


What is 4 then???


USS Fitzgerald collided with that container ship
USS Lake Champlain (Ticonderoga class cruiser) collided with a fishing boat (May 17)
USS Louisiana (Ohio Class sub) collided with OSV (Aug 16)

The ships name was USS Antietam, it ran aground
Logged
Operational - 1/72 LCMIII, 1/180 Royal Sovereign
Non Operational - 1/72 Corvette, 1/72 E-Boat, 1/72 vosper mtb
incomplete, HMS Victory, tug, cardboard castle class convert, got the new job, looking again though

tigertiger

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,019
  • Location: Kunming, city of eternal springtime, SW China.
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 12:51:17 PM »

Personally, I suspect cyber attacks. Ships usually pass in the night, occasionally go bump, but this has happened to many times to be passed off as happenstance.
But what do I know.
Logged
The only stupid question is the one I didn't ask

gingyer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,517
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 01:02:35 PM »

The ships name was USS Antietam, it ran aground


no that would make 5 ships, I never included the Antietam as it never hit another ship
Logged

warspite

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,688
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 01:05:54 PM »

True - though the article I saw mentioned 4 incidents in the last couple of months hence the USS Antietam.
Logged
Operational - 1/72 LCMIII, 1/180 Royal Sovereign
Non Operational - 1/72 Corvette, 1/72 E-Boat, 1/72 vosper mtb
incomplete, HMS Victory, tug, cardboard castle class convert, got the new job, looking again though

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,034
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2017, 02:50:19 PM »

gingyer......

If I am not mistaken, your avatar is a 5"/54 calibre MK42 gun mount on the foredeck of an Airleigh Bourke Destroyer

Do you have any thoughts or comment on my previous question.....

"Why does the USS John S McCain have her Fwd 5" gun facing hard over to Stdb? and depressed ~~ say 15 degrees?"

Derek

Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Umi_Ryuzuki

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,126
  • Location: PDX, OR USA
    • Models and Miniatures
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 08:28:18 PM »

I am thinking "hacking" GPS, or something else innocuous on board the shipping, or naval vessels.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40685821

 :o :o :o

Who was it here, that was annoyed that his street sweeper had a new GPS installed, and for
grins, over drove the GPS signal using a cell phone and laptop to show his sweeper out on
the North Sea for the day...  %)

gingyer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,517
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2017, 08:31:20 PM »

not got much of an idea.....
That said, I have seen pictures of Type 42 destroyers and the ships were being prepped for
receiving a tow the 4.5" gun is in the same position. Maybe the ship had prepared itself for receiving a tow
should the worst happen.
Logged

rnli12

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 583
  • Location: Cornwall
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2017, 08:46:43 PM »

Hi,


Perhaps a total electricity failure whilst maneuvering or steering gear failure it does happen.


Rich
Logged
Regards,

Rich

mudway

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 416
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great
  • Location: Sydney
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2017, 07:12:54 AM »

In this case, simply looking at the damage on the ships, the container ship would be at fault. Give way to vessels crossing from starboard, as per COLREGs. Of course it could be a lot more complex than that, what with draft constraints, RAM, NUC, TSS lanes and so on. Regardless though the rules are very clear that you have a responsibility to avoid a collision, even if you're in the right. I suspect that there will be a lot of repercussions as a result even if the container ship is the one that ultimately carries the can.

With the Fitzgerald it was at fault according to COLREGS, if I remember correctly.


What if McCain had overtaken the tanker then turned across her bows?
Logged

McGherkin

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 384
  • Location: Plymouth
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2017, 09:25:24 AM »

As stated there's a lot of possibilities, but to be honest the damage looks perpendicular, so it would probably have to be a pretty sharp turn to get into that sort of position at a proximity that would prevent the container ship from avoiding it.


Anything's possible though.
Logged

TailUK

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,632
  • Location: East Midlands
Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2017, 09:28:50 AM »

I am thinking "hacking" GPS, or something else innocuous on board the shipping, or naval vessels.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40685821

 :o :o :o

Who was it here, that was annoyed that his street sweeper had a new GPS installed, and for
grins, over drove the GPS signal using a cell phone and laptop to show his sweeper out on
the North Sea for the day...  %)

I was thinking along those lines but even if they lost computers entirely how did they fail to spot a boat 3 time their size?  Unless they're completely dependant on the electronics which even in this day an age is stupid at best, criminal at worst.
Logged
No human society has ever functioned without models to capture, explain,disseminate,
persuade, sell, reinforce and analyse all kinds of ideas, values, concepts and situations.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up