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Author Topic: USS John S McCain  (Read 4582 times)

McGherkin

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2017, 09:58:17 AM »

Most of these accidents happen because although they can see the ship, they assume it's not on a collision course, or they expect it to turn, but by the time they realise the turn isn't going to happen it's too late to take avoiding action themselves.
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raflaunches

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2017, 10:18:41 AM »

Forgive my ignorance but doesn't the smaller vessel, i.e. The McCain, have to give way to the much larger ship like the oil/container ship as the bigger ship can't manoeuvre like the destroyer can. So surely either way the destroyer's bridge crew are at fault for getting in the way of a vessel that can't stop very quickly or manoeuvre easily whilst underway. {:-{
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McGherkin

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2017, 10:25:51 AM »

They're actually not too different length wise, although obviously displacement is different.
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smudger1309

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 02:15:04 PM »

Forgive my ignorance but doesn't the smaller vessel, i.e. The McCain, have to give way to the much larger ship like the oil/container ship as the bigger ship can't manoeuvre like the destroyer can. So surely either way the destroyer's bridge crew are at fault for getting in the way of a vessel that can't stop very quickly or manoeuvre easily whilst underway. {:-{


i would've thought so as destroyers are built for manoeuvrability so if they are attacked they can at least try and avoid,   were as you said the oil tanker are not built that way,  why tugs are needed at slow speed and even at high speed need a wide turning circle   
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smudger1309

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 02:17:18 PM »

for the USS Fitzgerald they already blamed poor seamanship on both the warship and the container ship
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Colin Bishop

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 02:47:42 PM »

McGherkin: One of the first things they teach you in seamanship is how to avoid collisions. If you can see a ship on a converging course and the bearing isn't changing then you will both occupy the same space in the near future. Secondly, all navigational radars have a collision warning facility, if two ships are on a collision course then alarms go off etc. etc. on both vessels.

Nick: The Collision Regulations (ColRegs) state that it is the duty of the overtaking ship to keep clear. The vessel being overtaken should maintain a steady course unless it is clearly unsafe to do so.

Obviously the McCain somehow got across the bow of the tanker but at this stage it is idle to speculate exactly why.

In the meantime the Vice Admiral in charge of Seventh Fleet has been sacked!

Colin
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Bob K

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 02:48:43 PM »

Sorry everyone, but I really don't understand how this could have happened, having just finished reading the COLREGS on avoidance of collisions at sea.  The map showing where this happened is not a narrow estuary, and unless there is a very narrow channel for a deep draught tankers there should not have been a problem.  Again COLREGS covers this too.
With all the sophisticated radars and threat surveillance systems on the destroyer this should be impossible.

If the OOW was awake, paying attention, and the systems were switched on.  Navigation lights?
They knew they were approaching Singapore where shipping will converge.

I see they have sacked the Vice Admiral commanding the 7th Fleet.  Someone's head has to roll, ultimate responsibility and all that.  He was only a few weeks from retiring too.
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Xtian29

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2017, 03:41:12 PM »

Hello


Just imagine a cowboy on a mustang horse playing around and some time crossing a crowded highway.  Then this cowboy is in dark grey scheme, without AIS and speak his own language.


Having crossed the wake of this kind of ship and also having worked with them, I must say that this young sailors (because most are young) are well trained military personnel and sometimes poor sailors coming from Oklahoma or Arkansas and far from having maritim sense.  They are "driving" the ship in the same way as she is an Abrams tank or F15 aircraft ... that's all.


I must say that there is often arrogance - I like the joke posted by BFSMP on reply #7,  sometime it's not from that. 


I remember an US Navy ship asking a fisherman to remain 600 yards from navy ship.  The spanish fisherman asking "who's talking" as the US ship didn't give it's name or pennant number -  the fisherman asking also "what is 600 yards" -  The answer of the US ship never change " remain 600 yards from US Navy ship or .... "


At sea who uses the yard as unit of measurement ???   Is it a way for a foreign military ship to treat a Spanish fisherman working at sight of the Spanish coast ?




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McGherkin

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2017, 03:56:07 PM »

McGherkin: One of the first things they teach you in seamanship is how to avoid collisions. If you can see a ship on a converging course and the bearing isn't changing then you will both occupy the same space in the near future. Secondly, all navigational radars have a collision warning facility, if two ships are on a collision course then alarms go off etc. etc. on both vessels.


Of course, constant bearings etc are part of daily life but humans are not infallible, and whilst a ship may not be on a constant bearing one moment, it can be the next, and if you only check once then you may miss it.
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Netleyned

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2017, 03:57:16 PM »

 :-))
Xantian
Even the RN measures the distance off in Cables.
Yards are horizontal bits on Masts %%


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TailUK

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2017, 05:13:22 PM »

Didn't the Royal Navy use yards for gunnery?
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Netleyned

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2017, 05:28:27 PM »

Gunners used yards, but nautical miles were and
are still used for navigating.
Nautical mile 2000 Yards


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dodes

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2017, 05:42:22 PM »

We do not know who had the watch, if it was in the small hours, I would not be surprised if it was a junior officer (echoes of the Southampton collision), with modern ship navigating radars now capable of plotting over a hundred targets with course projection line and CPA, the picture can be very hard at times to read and keep up with. It only needs some inocus distraction on the bridge such as a phone call or radio message to distract you and with a container ship doing 20+ knots without the destroyers speed in a crowded small area and bang you have a collision, then all the senior men run and jump the net to blame the most junior hand.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 06:48:00 PM »

CNN are saying that a Navy official told them that the McCain suffered a steering failure just before the collision. So maybe the crew are not to blame then?

Colin
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dodes

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2017, 09:20:42 PM »

I hear on tonights news that the US Navy top brass has removed the Admiral of the 7th Fleet because they consider there has too many incidents under his watch.
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Xtian29

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2017, 09:33:47 PM »

Then, maybe Trump will remove the Top Brass ...   Who's the next after ?
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kinmel

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2017, 07:53:16 AM »

CNN are saying that a Navy official told them that the McCain suffered a steering failure just before the collision. So maybe the crew are not to blame then?

Colin

Even the Mersey ferry has a secondary steering position.

Have they forgatten that old adage about equipment.... two is one and one is none ?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2017, 09:15:34 AM »

The McCain would obviously have a secondary steering position but it is unlikely that you could must switch over in seconds, and that is assuming that the rudder mechanism itself hadn't jammed.

People don't always appreciate that hazardous situations in confined waters can escalate with terrifying speed giving those in charge very little time to react even if well trained and drilled.

But, again, we are just speculating here with no facts available until the interim report comes out

Colin
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malcolmfrary

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2017, 10:36:15 AM »

50000 ton merchant vessels do not change speed or direction easily, so their courses are fairly predictable.  Modern warships are designed to not show up on radar and be generally stealthy.  As such, with their vastly more powerful radar and ability to maneuver, whatever the rules of the road, it is up to the stealthy military ship to keep out of harms way.  If their crews training has taught them otherwise, some retraining is in order.
There does seem to have been a lot of it about lately.  In recent years, there have been air crashes where the airliner crew were managing the systems that fly the plane, rather than actually flying the plane.  Thinking of the Air France flight that crashed mid Atlantic. Idle speculation, but can that sort of thing happen on modern ships?
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Xtian29

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2017, 12:31:44 PM »

Quote
50000 ton merchant vessels do not change speed or direction easily, so their courses are fairly predictable

Yep, and have a look to the tanker AIS tracking - nothing more predictable course than ships on traffic separation scheme and noticed that around it's like a supermarket parking with many ship anchored.

If it's understable to sail without AIS during "war game" it's just stupid when crossing a "ship highway" like that all foreign navy like RN or European one have the AIS switched ON in this case

At 0.50 the tanker turn left - it's just after the colision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlrA36GzHNs
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smudger1309

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2017, 07:43:28 PM »

wouldn't surprise me  if anti collision etc was on blink or was turned off


but if it was steering issue how long would it take for a modern warship get secondary steering to work
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Colin Bishop

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2017, 08:09:42 PM »

Why would they turn off the anti collision warning???

Colin
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derekwarner

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2017, 01:16:59 AM »

Following may dispel misconceptions or help to understand steerage capability on an Airleigh Bourke Class Destroyer

Airleigh Bourke Class destroyers have two individual dedicated electro-hydraulic systems for steerage via the rudders
Each of these hydraulic systems have dedicated 24/7 hydraulic accumulator pressure reserve that could provide steerage commands to the rudder system in the event of an emergency

US protocol is for both hydraulic systems to be on line when departing or entering a port
One system [either] is used during sea deployment
It is common to use one system for one leg of a deployment and the other system on the return leg]
[I understand this to also be common to Warships of the RN, RNZN and RAN]

The usage of one online system at sea allows for minor or scheduled maintenance to the other system without disruption to sea deployment duties, or compromise the vessels ability for steerage

If one system failed during sea deployment, the second system would auto start within milli seconds
If both systems lost electrical power, the singular and combined hydraulic accumulators have the capacity to provide steerage until an auxiliary hydraulic supply can be [again] PLC controlled & bought into service

Both rudders are fixed as a pair, each propeller can be driven at independent shaft speed and thrust direction

[the above is based on my onboard inspection of an Airleigh Bourke Class Destroyer some years ago]

Form this [xtian29 & I agree], it would be extremely difficult to understand how the loss of steerage could be the root cause of the incident with the Airleigh Bourke Class Destroyer USS John S McCain

.....Derek

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McGherkin

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2017, 08:24:41 AM »

Yep, and have a look to the tanker AIS tracking - nothing more predictable course than ships on traffic separation scheme...   and noticed that around it's like a supermarket parking with many ship anchored.

If it's understable to sail without AIS during "war game" it's just stupid when crossing a "ship highway" like that all foreign navy like RN or European one have the AIS switched ON in this case


At 0.50 the tanker turn left - it's just after the colision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlrA36GzHNs


Well, that pretty much settles it. Crossing a TSS means you are always the give way vessel and not transmitting AIS is a very silly idea.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: USS John S McCain
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2017, 10:12:38 AM »

Very interesting information Derek, thanks for posting.

There are a couple of reports in the US suggesting that operational and budgetary pressures have badly affected crew training and equipment maintenance.

Quite agree that it seems mad not to be using AIS. I'm sure the Chinese and Russians etc. know exactly where major US warships are in 'peacetime'.

Colin
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