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[Chase]

Hello,


      I am writing because I am looking for a good source of information on Italian Duilio Class ironclads built in the 1870's. I've purchased a set of plans from ANB in Italy, they are 1:100 scale and quite nice (other than the fact the "body" plan and plating plan are combined), but I am wondering if there are any additional sources of technical information and good photos of the two ships.


I'd like to build a large scale R/C model of one of the ships, but I'd really like to build Duilio as she appeared in the 1890's with additional secondary guns or Dandolo after she was extensively rebuilt in 1895. I find the late 1880's to 1890's "rebuilds" of obsolete ironclads to be particularly interesting.


Any help would be much appreciated   

[tonyH]

Hi Chase,

A great project and no doubt you'll have seen the mini-model build on the steelnavy site  www.steelnavy.com/DelphisCDuilio.htm which has a decent write up with a lot of data as well including some details of the additional arming in the rebuilds.

Tony

[ballastanksian]

Welcome to mayhem Chase. That is an excellent project you have in the offing! The era is one of interesting designs. At this time you see the Popovka and developments in Ram ships as well as the relevent growth on guns to monster proportions. What they lack in the majesty of the Dreadnoughts and Super dreadnoughts, they gain in their visual appeal.

Anyhow, the Delphis kit looks like a good reference point as do the photos. Maybe purchasing the kit will give you some 3D references to work by, and then you can always sell the kit on to recoup some costs for a future project. I often buy kits to refer to for work projects.

Keep us informed of your progress Chase.  looks like I will need to get more tea and biscuits in 

[tonyH]

There's also a Polish card kit at 1:98, so it may be that the larger scale will give more accurate details.
I'd also think laterally internationally.
I found plans for a Greek gunboat of 1881 on a Romanian web site. www.Modelism.ro

Tony

[Chase]

Thank you for the replies gentlemen,


      I have a copy of the Polish card model kit, I do agree sometimes paper models are an invaluable source of information. I've been trying to join forums around the world and I must say I'm happy to have found this forum. Sadly, the modelling community in the US seems to have really diminished in the last decade. It is nice to see this forum going strong. I'm also a member on a Russian forum but the language barrier makes me somewhat timid to post... I mostly just read.


I purchased plans for the Duilio many years ago with the intention of building a large scale model with functional features, turrets that rotated and loaded properly (with blanks), functional torpedo tubes, etc. but lack of primary source information has always pushed back the project. Whole chapters have been devoted to Inflexible in books, but Duilio is often only mentioned in passing. My copy of Conway's is my number one book for research, but as great as it is it is loaded with errors for lesser known ships.


The plans I have are lovely, but I've always wanted to build the ship in a later fit, or really surprise people and build the reconstructed version of Dandolo with modern turrets. I'm just not confident enough in my skills to make educated guesses that everybody has to make when comparing plans to source material and photos. Good clear photos of the two ships are hard to find, and even then they often create as many questions as they answer.


Usually when I get stumped I take a break and research another ship for a while. After Duilio I purchased plans for her arch-nemesis, HMS Inflexible, then I downloaded all of the Pre-Dreadnought plans from the French Archive, then I started find Russian plans, next I started getting copies of plans from the US National Archives, then the Danish archive, then the Dutch archive, and the Japanese archives... almost 400 ships later I think it is safe to admit I'm a shameless hoarder of plans... but I enjoy it 

[joppyuk1]

As I read somewhere recently (I forget where), I have so many plans for future projects I need to live forever to finish them.

[tonyH]

Hi Chase,

Have you tried sourcing through the photo libraries that provide the main sources for Italian (and many other) ships for Janes and Conway over many years.
I found my best photo of Ambrakia on the Arrigo Barilli collection and the Aldo Fraccaroli collection is huge.
I contacted them by letter but you may be able to source on the web.

Here's Actaeon (Her sister ship)

[Chase]

Hi Tony,


     I have been able to collect quite a few photos from international sources.... but they tend to create additional headaches. I'll post a couple to illustrate.


This pic is supposed to be Duilio.

[Chase]

This is a pic of her sister ship Dandolo.


The man standing at the bow looks awfully familiar 

[ballastanksian]

I find it frustrating that some of the best reference material crops up once the project is 'completed' 

I think it is the research equivalent to painting in that you could research and research for years but never build anything, there has to be a balance between absolute accuracy and building.

Alternatively, treat subsequent reference thus: When you come to refit your model because the bumps and years have started to take their toll, incorporate the latest information in updating your model. You may even complete your model slightly light on detail etc and then add it on as you find more information.

At the end of the day, it is your hobby and you must do as you see fit, so don't fret, and see what you get. You may find building the hull takes long enough that more reference will appear as you are sanding and filling?

[Chase]

In the previous photo the step in the hull to fair in the armor belt is easily visible, as is the area of armor plating.


This corresponds to the shape of hull in the plans I have obtained for the ship.


Attached is a small drawing done by the gentleman who drew up the plans.

[Colin Bishop]

Warships were continually updated throughout their careers and still are today so capturing an accurate 'snapshot' is always a problem.

If you choose a subject on which there is limited information then nobody will be able to criticise your work!

Colin

[Chase]

Here is another pic of Duilio on the stocks,


    Or should I say its supposed to be Duilio but who knows at this point 


Not only is the area of armor different, but the "step" in the hull is not there. According to various sources the ship was modified several times during construction.... but most published works tend to focus on the quest to out-gun Inflexible but spend little time focusing on the rest of ship.

[ballastanksian]

I like how the fittings in the bows were moved over to accomodate the turret's firing arc. This will make for an interesting model for display.

[Chase]

Here is a pic of Dandolo take before she was reconstructed in the late 1890's


I've re-sized it so I can post, but in the original it is easy to read the ship's name on the back of the boat house on the stern.


This pic shows the ship in the period I would like to model the Duilio.... the additonal secondary guns make for more smoke, noise and entertainment 


But now we run into more technical questions, now concerning Duilio's torpedo boat hanger. I can find no source that mentions if the ship still carried her torpedo boat in the 1890's, sources don't even agree if the TB was named Clio.


To posistion the secondary battery on the Duilio seems fly in the face of good engineering. The two guns on the main deck are very close to where the clamshell doors on the stern would open. And the center gun on the boat house interferes with the auxiliary hand-wheels shown in the plans.

[Chase]

This two photos could possibly clear things up.... but they are so grainy they simply create more questions.


They are supposed to show Duilio late in her career. I "think" I see guns mounted at the stern wrapped in tarps... but I can't be sure.


But it appears there is gun mounted directly in the center of the stern exactly where the clamshell doors would open to expose the torpedo boat hangar.


Clear as mud, eh? 

[ballastanksian]

If they mounted a gun or installation where there used to be a door/hangar etc then it makes sense that the latter has been deleted.

But, as was mentioned a few years back (I recall Colin or Nick asking about how guns were retracted into casemates) guns could be moved about on rails, so if the torpedo boat was retained maybe the gun mounting could be moved to one side.

Logically though, if you are adding extra guns, their crews and their ammunition, then you are adding weight. This may be accounted for in surplus dispacement, or something else must be taken out to provide the weight requirement. Say a Torpedo boat, her launching apparatus and her consumables.

[Chase]

Here is pic of a model showing the torpedo boat hangar,


      Adding the hangar, with the ability to launch and retrieve a small R/C torpedo boat would be very neat addition to the model.


There seem to be two large models of the Duilio in Italy, I have gathered as many pictures as I can find of them.... but of course they differ in many details as well.

[Chase]

Logically though, if you are adding extra guns, their crews and their ammunition, then you are adding weight. This may be accounted for in surplus dispacement, or something else must be taken out to provide the weight requirement. Say a Torpedo boat, her launching apparatus and her consumables.

Not to mention you need space for shells and a powder magazine.... and after viewing pics of the cut-away model of the ship... there seems to have been little of it. Regardless of space considerations, the extreme stern seems like a terrible place to mount the guns. They are very close to the water and they block the turrets from firing dead astern.... not to mention I wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near those guns when the turrets were lobbing 2000 lb shells aft.


Lack of space also creates questions about the ship's torpedo tubes... the bow tube (placed in a terrible spot, in the ram) is always prominently featured in drawings and models of the ship, as well as being visible in the pictures of the ships on the stocks. The ship was supposed to have carried 3 tubes... but the additional tubes don't appear in any drawings and are not visible on the hull.

[raflaunches]

Hi


Have a look for Brian King's book 'Modelling Victorian era Battleships'. I believe one of the excellent builds are of a Dulio.
Good luck with the build I'll look forward to seeing the completed model

[Chase]

Hi


Have a look for Brian King's book 'Modelling Victorian era Battleships'. I believe one of the excellent builds are of a Dulio.
Good luck with the build I'll look forward to seeing the completed model

I have that book as well... a wonderful source information and great photos. I have the plans he used for his model, although I am considering purchasing one more set of plans for the ship. ANB offers a larger scale set (1:50 IIRC) that if I am reading the translation correctly... are based on the originals in the Italian Archives.


I dug up some more information on the torpedo boat the ship carried. According to Conway's, Clio (whose name was changed to 11T in 1885) was not discarded until 1904, 14 years after Duilio was fitted with additional rapid fire guns, and only 5 years before Duilio was disarmed and hulked. In 1890's, the boat was too small and too slow to be of much value unless she was still on board Duilio.

[ballastanksian]

The tactics of the period when the secondary armament was fitted was that the large guns provided the 'coup de grace' after the smaller guns had worked the enemy ship over sufficiently to neutralise it. This was still a period when fighting was to be at quite short range where the smaller guns still had a role to play at a capital level rather than waiting for something small like a Destroyer to approach. Tertiary armament for dealing with Torpedo boats would have held back for just this purpose.

D.K Brown's book 'Warrior to Dreadnought' is a good read on all these ideas and designs though mostly to do with the Royal navy. That is a lot of space devoted to the torpedo boat isn't it. Regarding your daughter boat idea, it is certainly possible. Did Graupner not do a rescue boat that had a stern area for a RIB that could be made radio controlled? The system to open and close the clamshells would be acheivable with some sketching and experimentation.