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Author Topic: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors  (Read 4075 times)

gman

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Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« on: October 02, 2017, 03:27:09 AM »

Hello, I am searching for pics or information on tugs with automobile fan heater blower motors/wiper motors. I am researching this information because I am in the process of building a river push boat. Length will be 60" and the width is 24". It will have two motors and I am thinking of a mixer with this set up.


Anyone here on the forum please respond with pics and information.  Also, feel free to suggest other motor setups for this type of boat hull. Components, links would be appreciated. 


Thanks.
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jarvo

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 09:21:47 AM »

Hi Gman, not got pics but the wiper motors are more of a problem, (the mountings are on the gearcase not the motor) Heater motors are superb, same as radiator motors. Heater motors are much bigger and more powerful and designed to run almost constantly so are much more robust, try to get one from a fairly new car!!!  wrecks that are written of from accident damage. Radiator motors are only designed to run intermittently, but are smaller.


Putting 2 in a 60" pusher tug would be easy using the mounting lugs, direct drive to big props is good, with a fairly large battery you won't need much ballast.


Servo's i would put 2, 1 for each rudder with a Y lead, due to the force of water flow.


ESC's 1 for each motor probably 25 - 30 amp, Heater motors don't draw much power. Again with a Y lead, you mention using a mixer, most modern R/C gear have built in mixers so that might be the way to go.


My tug only has 1 blower motor but it does pull a 10' dingy with 2 people around our lake with ease


Hope this gives you a starting point, good luck with the build


Regards


Mark
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Ianlind

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 09:47:32 AM »

G'day gman,
I'm a bit of a fan of these brushed motors, and have been using them since 1982. I did a bit of an input under the Albert blog on this page. Albert uses a smaller motor and direct drive, but performs very nicely and almost silent running after initially trying a very noisy and troublesome brushless setup! Used the same arrangement in my little 1/16 scale Dredge Tender that I built while waiting for Albert to turn up.


My first tug, the Sydney based "Iron Cove", built in 1982, is still running the original motor and drive with a 6 inch x 4 blade prop. She's 58 1/2" long x 16 inch beam and carries a lot of lead ballast.

It uses a 12v fan motor out of a Ford ( Falcon ), with a 1/4" round section urethane drive belt ( Redthane belting ) on home turned pulleys at about 3 - 1 reduction.
Runs all day + on a car battery. The Esc is a unit that used to be made by a member of my club back then, but now I use the cheap car type ones readily available on the internet for very few dollars.
Don't have any images of this build, as it was a long time ago, but if you want an image or two of my drive system, I can do that in the next day or two.


I'm guessing you are building a shallow draught pusher with not much hull depth, so depending on how much room you have, you could maybe use direct drive with smaller diam props. The old rule of thumb use to be, that you used a motor of a similar diameter to the prop.
There are plenty of people on here that can probably give you far more technical detail than I can, but what I do works for me, and has done for a lot of years. I like things simple!


Jarvo beat me to posting my reply, but what he says is pretty right, and my Iron Cove also pulls a dinghy with no problem.


You could get away with only using one rudder servo if you use a Hi torgue metal geared unit.


Regards
Ian.

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gman

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 04:37:42 PM »

Feedback appreciated. Ian, yes, please post up pics I would love to see the setup. If you need my email I can send it to you.
I also have been researching a bit on action electroics as well.
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john44

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 06:27:58 PM »

Hi, the old rule of thumb as I remember it the prop size should not be bigger than the diameter of the
rotor not the stator. But that was a general idea but as motor power differs from high speed to lower
High torque speeds l kicked that rule in the head, for me anyway. A car fan motor should however
turn a largish prop with no trouble I would think, I will be corrected no doubt if I am wrong.


John
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grendel

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 08:31:20 PM »

I would recommend getting new ones, I recently had to replace the fan motor on my 17 year old (200,000 mile) volvo. I disassembled the old motor and there was a big groove in the commutator.
I must say they seem to be built to last.
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john44

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 09:28:41 PM »

Wow, Grendel it looks more like a slipring motor now {-)


John
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derekwarner

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 12:07:03 AM »

That is a very interesting wear indicator on the commutator grendel .....motor manufactures always have to balance life.....the softer the brush, the least wear of the copper segments of the commutator...and visa versa

Did the brush set have those pole pieces that cause open circuit prior to actual burn out?

My Mitsubishi is just 10 years old & 195K....kilometres ......and the heater/cooler air conditioner is on for every km....and I suppose any potential warranty claim would be out of the question {-)....

[I have one set of Takada airbag switches replaced under warranty during year 9, and Mitsubishi have recently advised the replacement switches installed are actually from the same faulty manufacturing process, so they are planned to be replaced again under warranty some time during the next 6 years.......that's if they don't explode and cause another death  <*< during that time period]

Derek
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gman

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 02:05:39 AM »

G'day gman,
I'm a bit of a fan of these brushed motors, and have been using them since 1982. I did a bit of an input under the Albert blog on this page. Albert uses a smaller motor and direct drive, but performs very nicely and almost silent running after initially trying a very noisy and troublesome brushless setup! Used the same arrangement in my little 1/16 scale Dredge Tender that I built while waiting for Albert to turn up.


My first tug, the Sydney based "Iron Cove", built in 1982, is still running the original motor and drive with a 6 inch x 4 blade prop. She's 58 1/2" long x 16 inch beam and carries a lot of lead ballast.

It uses a 12v fan motor out of a Ford ( Falcon ), with a 1/4" round section urethane drive belt ( Redthane belting ) on home turned pulleys at about 3 - 1 reduction.
Runs all day + on a car battery. The Esc is a unit that used to be made by a member of my club back then, but now I use the cheap car type ones readily available on the internet for very few dollars.
Don't have any images of this build, as it was a long time ago, but if you want an image or two of my drive system, I can do that in the next day or two.


I'm guessing you are building a shallow draught pusher with not much hull depth, so depending on how much room you have, you could maybe use direct drive with smaller diam props. The old rule of thumb use to be, that you used a motor of a similar diameter to the prop.
There are plenty of people on here that can probably give you far more technical detail than I can, but what I do works for me, and has done for a lot of years. I like things simple!


Jarvo beat me to posting my reply, but what he says is pretty right, and my Iron Cove also pulls a dinghy with no problem.


You could get away with only using one rudder servo if you use a Hi torgue metal geared unit.


Regards
Ian.
If it isn't too much trouble could post up some pics of you heater motor setup?
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Ianlind

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 03:08:24 AM »

G'day again gman,

Image of the simple but effective setup in the Iron Cove. And I use grease in the tube, due to the low revs of the large prop.
Can't remember the origins of the fan, as it was 35 yrs ago! I think it would have been from a hair dryer or similar, but it works well by moving air around in the hull. The motor doesn't work very hard due to the belt reduction and therefore doesn't generate much heat.

Also, an image of the Iron Cove not long after the initial launch.

Ian.
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FsASTSyd1

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 08:47:05 AM »

Whilst I haven't dealt with them for some time the "MGB Hive" at Parson Drove near Wisbech had new, probably newly sourced versions of the Smiths blower motor. at least two versions for different year models at prices £30 to £85. One might suggest that any of the suppliers of parts for any British classic car van lorry might be able to supply. Are there any of the older style scrappies about any more, as they used to have shelves full of them, for they were used on virtually every vehicle produced in this country and no doubt others for more years than we may want to remember.
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jarvo

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 09:37:04 AM »

Hi Syd, look on the internet for scrapyards, superb one at bolton, TV series Scrappers? thats them. Email www.scrapperstv and give them the details


Mark
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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 10:40:02 AM »

Something to bear in mind is to check that the motor turns both ways before you install it. 


I have a new Land Rover fan motor which only works one way, which is pretty useless in a boat >>:-( .


I know it is possible to convert it, but it is easier to avoid the problem.

grendel

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 01:52:04 PM »

That is a very interesting wear indicator on the commutator grendel .....motor manufactures always have to balance life.....the softer the brush, the least wear of the copper segments of the commutator...and visa versa

Did the brush set have those pole pieces that cause open circuit prior to actual burn out?

My Mitsubishi is just 10 years old & 195K....kilometres ......and the heater/cooler air conditioner is on for every km....and I suppose any potential warranty claim would be out of the question {-)....

[I have one set of Takada airbag switches replaced under warranty during year 9, and Mitsubishi have recently advised the replacement switches installed are actually from the same faulty manufacturing process, so they are planned to be replaced again under warranty some time during the next 6 years.......that's if they don't explode and cause another death  <*< during that time period]

Derek

To be honest the motor still runs, but only when the commutator is held vertical so the brushes make contact at the sides, in its normal orientation the brushes no longer quite reach the commutator. I opened it up to see if it was worth getting new brushes, and when I saw the wear, I worked out that when they designed the motor they designed in the commutator wear to allow for at least 15 years of constant use.
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gman

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2017, 01:22:42 AM »

Been looking at the heater motors and do I need to look at a 2 or 3 wire, one speed or two speed? Any other information I need before I buy? I see a lot of the motors have a shaft on both sides. Do you cut one of the shafts off?
Thanks
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Ianlind

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 02:39:00 AM »

I only use 2 wire single speed motors myself, as you get your control through the Esc. I guess a 2 speed would give more options.

Cut one shaft off if you can't find a suitable single shaft motor.

Ian.
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gman

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 02:52:10 AM »

Gotta ask you, what thickness of wood did you use on the bulkheads and the sheeting on your boat build? I think I may use 1/4 ply on the bulkheads and 1/8 to sheet the hull.
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gman

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2017, 03:00:35 AM »

G'day gman,
I'm a bit of a fan of these brushed motors, and have been using them since 1982. I did a bit of an input under the Albert blog on this page. Albert uses a smaller motor and direct drive, but performs very nicely and almost silent running after initially trying a very noisy and troublesome brushless setup! Used the same arrangement in my little 1/16 scale Dredge Tender that I built while waiting for Albert to turn up.


My first tug, the Sydney based "Iron Cove", built in 1982, is still running the original motor and drive with a 6 inch x 4 blade prop. She's 58 1/2" long x 16 inch beam and carries a lot of lead ballast.

It uses a 12v fan motor out of a Ford ( Falcon ), with a 1/4" round section urethane drive belt ( Redthane belting ) on home turned pulleys at about 3 - 1 reduction.
Runs all day + on a car battery. The Esc is a unit that used to be made by a member of my club back then, but now I use the cheap car type ones readily available on the internet for very few dollars.
Don't have any images of this build, as it was a long time ago, but if you want an image or two of my drive system, I can do that in the next day or two.


I'm guessing you are building a shallow draught pusher with not much hull depth, so depending on how much room you have, you could maybe use direct drive with smaller diam props. The old rule of thumb use to be, that you used a motor of a similar diameter to the prop.
There are plenty of people on here that can probably give you far more technical detail than I can, but what I do works for me, and has done for a lot of years. I like things simple!


Jarvo beat me to posting my reply, but what he says is pretty right, and my Iron Cove also pulls a dinghy with no problem.


You could get away with only using one rudder servo if you use a Hi torgue metal geared unit.


Regards
Ian.
I tried to find your Albert Blog but can't find it.
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Ianlind

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 03:16:39 AM »

G'day gman,

Go to the Working Vessels page, top item, started by Mermod, then part way through I get involved with my build of Albert, and the Dredge Tender is also mentioned there.

Post 141 shows where I removed the brushless motor and replaced it with a large car radio aerial motor, and it runs so much better.

Brushless are probably fine in fast boats, but they are very noisy compared to the brushed motors which basically run silent.

Ian.
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gman

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2017, 01:17:01 AM »

Thank you for the link.  Are their any build threads with car heater motors? I have been reading articles on action electronics trying to educate myself on the setup.  Now, I understand a single speed 2 wire motor will do but what about the 2 speed motor setup? Anyone care to share how the setup will work? The components etc? There has to be more info or threads on this. Right?
Now for my next question. What source is their for the 4 and 5 inch propellers?
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2017, 03:00:28 AM »


Click 'Home' button above, then do a search for - Blower motor - that should link you to all the builds on here.   :-))
 
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jarvo

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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2017, 09:03:18 AM »

Gman, big props are relatively easy, Raboesch, from Deans Marine and Propshop, Propshop are cast and very expensive but oh so beautiful mounted on the model, Raboesch are soldered blades so are a lot cheaper, just remembered Propshop have split from the main company but can't remember what there name is now, but sure someone will give the info.


Regards


Mark 
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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2017, 09:14:42 AM »

simon of prop shop is now known as  protean design  phone no  01789 565228


his props are fantastic :-)) i have 14 in service  size's  from 50mm - 100mm



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Re: Tugs with car wind shield/fan blower motors
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2017, 04:49:38 PM »





Bonjour,
I confirm, Propshop propellers are great, I have a lot of them (here is the 4,5" for my tug JAN) but currrently, impossible to order, the manufacture has burnt is told on their site http://prop-shop.co.uk/
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