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Author Topic: Another Huntsman rebuild  (Read 10165 times)

Capt Podge

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Another Huntsman rebuild
« on: October 13, 2017, 11:13:56 PM »

Whilst wondering what to build next - I've got quite a lot of plans stored away - got a call from a relative who has had this Fairey Huntsman withering away in the loft for X number of years. The upshot of this is that, rather than allow it to disappear altogether, he asked if I could take it off his hands, otherwise it would be taken to the tip.

Well, being one of those people who hates to see things get thrown away, I agreed to "have a go" at restoring it.

The boat measures 34" so I think it must be a Huntsman 31 model. Whoever built it originally fitted it out with an IC engine but that was removed before my in-law got it.

I knew, as soon as I saw it, I was in for some serious reworking.
In this 1st photo the boat looks ok but, once the lid came off, I cringed at the thought of stripping this hull down...in fact, the upperwork more or less crumbled away - the wood was spongy with dampness. I can only assume that a lack of drying out after sailing contributed to this?

However, with the hull being fibreglass, the boat is still salvageable...

photo 1: the boat as received
photo 2: what was left inside
photo 3: the deck ripped off and various components removed
photo 4, 5, 6 & 7: some of the "gunge" to be dealt with...
photo 8: a start made - it has taken 4 workshop sessions just to get this far and, oh boy, my finger ends are stinging!


Well, any progress is better than no progress.

Regards,

Ray.
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canabus

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 08:43:49 AM »

Hi Capt Podge

I am into the same boat!!!
In your case replacing the frame would be the way to go and making frame 1 to the bow a sealed area.
Mine had the combing for the whole cabin to fit down onto, but, none at the bow and stern.
I add these to slow water off the deck.
As with yours I removed the IC motor and remounted a brushless motor, also filled in the exhaust outlet.
The cabin on mine is a bit of a pigs ear at present(working on that), the windows are all to be replaced.
At present I am veneering the deck.
If you require help I have some good info and plans that will help you out.

Canabus
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 12:10:28 PM »

If you require help I have some good info and plans that will help you out.

Canabus

Thank you Canabus, that is good news - I don't have the plans for this boat, I'm just winging it for now, although I've picked out a number of photographs of the real thing for guidance.
My intention is to install twin props and rudders and will attempt to keep the angle of the shafts as narrow as possible. I've got a couple of brushed 540 motors to install when I get to that stage.

I managed to save a few bits of the cabin and will use these as templates to make up a new one. If all goes well, I'm going to attempt to make the cabin as a plug to make a fibreglass mould.
I have never tried making anything in fibreglass so it will be a new experience for me.

Hope to get a bit more done this coming week.
Also, I'll be keeping an eye on your build and hopefully picking up some tips along the way.

Regards,

Ray.
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canabus

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 01:47:02 PM »

Hi Capt Podge
If you email me I can help with plans.

Canabus
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canabus

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 01:53:26 PM »

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nemesis

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 04:29:02 PM »

Hi Ray, you can work miracles with resin and glassfibre, got a gallon in the shed plus gel if you need it. bill
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Davo

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 07:09:08 PM »

A true Salvage Team job you have there. Back in the 1970s I did make the small Huntsman for a friend powered by around about a 3.5cc glow engine. It handled superbly due I think to the deep V hull.
The fibre glass version you have seems to have a relatively flat bottom to the transom (photo angle perhaps?) so possibly someone may have made their own design based on the Huntsman.
Picture below from another build on the Forum.
David
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 10:17:29 PM »

Hi Capt Podge
If ewe email me I can help with plans.

Canabus

Hi Canabus - PM sent. :-)

Regards,

Ray.
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 10:18:51 PM »

Hi Ray, you can work miracles with resin and glassfibre, got a gallon in the shed plus gel if you need it. bill

Thank you Bill - probably see you at the lake tomorrow ?

Regards,

Ray.
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 10:23:00 PM »

A true Salvage Team job you have there. Back in the 1970s I did make the small Huntsman for a friend powered by around about a 3.5cc glow engine. It handled superbly due I think to the deep V hull.
The fibre glass version you have seems to have a relatively flat bottom to the transom (photo angle perhaps?) so possibly someone may have made their own design based on the Huntsman.
Picture below from another build on the Forum.
David

Hi David, my hull is definitely shallow compared to the one in your photo - just read the build log by Canabus, looks like we're both working the same hull anyway, so that will be useful. :-)

Regards,

Ray.


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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 08:07:21 PM »

Just a little update on hull preparation - there's really precious little to show for the amount of time and effort spent over the last week however, I know the effort will be worth it in the end - anyway, managed to remove the 2 bulkheads, the motor bed and the prop-tube...
the last photo shows a horrible gaping hole where the prop-tube was finally twisted free of the hull - this hole will be filled later with P40, along with the other smaller holes where running gear was removed.

Note: Finger ends are too sore to do anymore rubbing down tonight, hope to get a little more done over the next few days.

Regards,

Ray.
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Davo

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2017, 08:28:17 PM »

The hull looks a better V section in these photos. Should have a good boat eventually. When fitting the prop shaft you can just use masking tape as 'shuttering' around the tube externally and lay up gel and glass mat on the inside. same for any holes. The fibre glass will not stick to the sticky side of the tape. This will leave minimal external filling required. Beware the damp weather as it may send the gel off during curing if outside.
David
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2017, 08:45:51 PM »

Beware the damp weather as it may send the gel off during curing if outside.
David

Yes, and there's plenty of that about. >:-o

Prop wise, I'm leaning toward twin tubes as opposed to single, but the final decision has yet to be made.
Whichever way I go I will be using brushed motors, initially at least - see how they perform.

...oh, and thanks for the glassing info. :-))

Regards,

Ray.
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Davo

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2017, 09:06:37 PM »

I think people have found that with deep V hulls, such as the Huntsman range, one prop will end up in the air, or severely cavitating at least, when turning. You would also need contra rotating props. I think keeping a single propeller as far back from the transom, as angles/prop dia will allow, would be useful. And perhaps a shortish (vertically) rudder to help reduce sideways lift when turning. I am sure others on here have some tried and tested set ups.
Most accept rudders as supplied as being the finished item but, if brass, they are easily cut about and modified. A leading edge forward of the stem is maybe not always needed. Perhaps a good topic for an article on rudder design by those who know. I have some laminated in ply and sanded to a nice rudder profile. Not sure it makes much difference but they look nice on display!
The multi prop boats for air sea rescue and fast MTBs etc all had relatively flat transom hard chine hulls built for planing and not displacement running. And I guess in the real world boats would not heel as much as out model counterparts do.
Looks like some busy evenings ahead!
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ChrisF

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2017, 09:13:45 PM »

The rudder is quite a distance from the rear isn't it. Does this have any effect on how the boat turns i.e. make it more twitchy?

Most boats and plans I've seen tend to have the rudder close to the stern. 

I'm interested in this because I've been working/setting out how much room is required for the positioning of the motor, couplings and prop shaft. Obviously having the rudder right at the stern  gives more space and allows the angle of the prop shaft to be as low as possible.


Edit: I see from the posts made as I was writing that the intention is to possibly change the number and/or position of the prop shaft anyway. From my workings out the prop shaft and motor takes up quite a bit of room to maintain a low angle and so by default means the rudder and prop will be very near the stern. I've been thinking about what affect the position of the rudder has on the boat turning, particularly at higher speeds.
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2017, 09:26:33 PM »

For me, it'll be a case of trial and error. My initial thought was to have shallow angle twin props and twin rudders set as near to the stern as possible. Having never built this type of model it will be interesting to say the least.
What I'm not looking for is something that will compete with modern fast electrics - just a bit of planing while running a leisure craft.

All input is welcome and hopefully a successful outcome sometime in the months ahead. As usual, I'm in no hurry...

Regards,

Ray.
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Davo

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2017, 09:48:33 PM »

I have been digging through a book called High-Speed Small Craft by Peter Ducane which deals with the science behind the design of real MTBs etc. In one section is says the rudder can be near the rear of a hull but needs to be under it; ie not externally mounted on the transom. Rudders on the transom needing anti-cavitation plates. In all cases the prop is fairly close to the rudder. The idea I guess is to turn the thrust of the propeller whilst it is not too turbulent. Too far away from the prop and the water is less 'clean' leading to less effective rudder control.  The leading edge of the rudder That part in front of the rudder stem) partially helps take the load off the servo but there is a ratio of thrust being allowed straight out for forward speed, and a percentage being used to turn the boat. The book also advocates a deeper rudder to induce heel for turning; so reducing the depth could be seen as a way of reducing heel when turning.
However, in all areas of modelling, science does not always conveniently scale down and trial and error is the order of the day.
The Peter Du Cane story is an interesting one. In the 1920s he took on and beat the American power boats with their multiple engines using quite small but well designed boats. Designs that he would later develop into the ASR boats and MTBs. To halt his winning streak the Americans kept changing rules(!)
David
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2017, 09:58:38 PM »

That would make a very interesting read David, thanks for pointing it out.

I'll pop into our local library to see if they can get one - looking on Amazon, it is a very expensive book. :o

Regards,

Ray.
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Davo

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2017, 10:16:56 PM »

I paid 15 for mine about 20 years ago. The section on rudders is interesting. In plan the profile is not as an aeroplane wing but has its widest section in the centre. Interestingly the trailing edge can be bluff (flat).
Putting High Speed Boat Rudder Design in Google and selecting images throws up some info.
I have often noted people using two connecting rods between the servo and rudder horn; sometimes in models that clearly do not need it. Unless they work in a true rhombus fashion the result is not good; and I have seen some like that. I always use a ball joint connection rather than just crank a rod through a hole.
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ChrisF

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2017, 10:23:39 PM »

David and Ray.

Interesting stuff and puts my mind at rest. Funnily enough I was concerned how close the prop is going to be to the rudder and thought that further away would be better.

Forgot to say, I'm about to start building a Swordsman at 33" so a similar sized boat. The Aerokits plans I've based my design on show a 35mm (at the top) x 45mm deep which is what I'm going to use.

As said, too deep a rudder can cause problems with the stern lifting on turns.

All good stuff, Chris
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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2017, 10:36:05 PM »

I got my references a little confused above. It was Hubert Scott-Paine who also developed high speed boats in circa 1914 progressing on to Miss England I and Miss Britain III in the 1920s. This becoming the first single engine boat to reach 100mph. And eventually founding the British Power Boat Company that developed the high speed rescue launches. See Fast Boat and Flying Boats, another interesting read.
I shall certainly be looking a bit closer at my rudders from now on.
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2017, 09:27:43 PM »

It's been a couple of weeks now and a little progress has been made.

Attention was turned to the outside of the hull and all paint has been removed, the holes blanked off on the inside, with a light gauze, P40 applied to both inner and outer and rubbed down smooth.
Waited for the obligatory 24hrs then placed the hull in the bath, weighted down almost to the top of the hull, for water tight integrity checks.
Found 4 pinhole leaks on the planing strakes so these were given the P40 treatment and retested - all dry now.

Photo 1: Shows some chipping to the hull edge and, what looks like red tape, is actually paint. So, that added to the rubbing down, as well as all the white and the blue.
Photo 2: Just to show the paint removal in progress. I did the whole hull in intervals, working on another couple of builds in between, to give the tender finger ends a break.
Photo 3: That's all the blue and red paint removed - just the white to tackle after that.
Photo 4: Finally, all paint removed.
No photos taken of the gauze/P40 treatment - this will show in subsequent photographs.

more to follow...


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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2017, 09:45:13 PM »

...Now, attention turned to starting on prop installation.

Started by drilling / reaming the holes and messing about looking for the best angle to set the tubes to give the shallowest possible angle but, at the same time, ensuring there would be clearance for the UJ's and the props themselves.

The first attempt, using masking tape and an angled piece of wood, was quite useless so I found a piece of scrap 2mm plasticard, drilled to the required angle and a couple of angled guides to rest the tubes on.

Once satisfied with the alignments, the tubes were epoxied into position. Hope to get a bit more done soon. :embarrassed:

Photo 1 & 2: The first attempt.
Photo 3,4 & 5: Much better.
Photo 6 & 7: They're in and epoxied.

Regards,

Ray.
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Capt Podge

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2017, 10:15:32 PM »

Continued to install running gear.

Made an athwartship bulkhead for the 2 motors, angled so as to align the motors to the propshafts/huco couplings.
Once satisfied with the fit, the support was epoxied into place and will be further treated with p40 for security.

Rudder tubes next...the holes were drilled for 3.75mm OD brass tube and, tubes 5cm long, made.
Unfortunately, on doing another check I realised I had somehow managed to drill the hole for the Port rudder tube 3mm nearer the stern than that of the Stbd one. Now needed to P40 fill the hole and re-do it !
I knew I should have used a jig but thought I could just "eyeball" it. :embarrassed:

Harking back to a comment made a while ago (I think it was Bob K) with regard to varifocal lenses - unless you are looking right at the centre of an object, the lenses distort the angles and therefore can throw you off by quite a margin. Even looking directly at a tea cup - looking at the centre of the cup from above, the cup is perfectly round. Move the cup slightly to one side and it appears egg shaped. :o

...but I digress.

Well, the hole was redrilled after very careful measuring (3 times) and now the supports for the rudder tubes have been made and set in place.

The next task was to make a stand so that the hull could be held perfectly still before attempting to line the rudder tubes up.

So, made a pair of cradles with 11mm ply and stretchers from 15mm dowling rod. This was then lined with soft draft excluder...this stand won't be painted - it's just for building on.

Next, the rudder tubes were fitted and tacked in place. The rudder shafts were then cut to size and a flat filed on each for the tiller arm screws to land on.
Then the arms were made and soldered up, on an old knitting needle of the appropriate size and secured in the vice then test fitted to their shafts - so far, so good.
Flats were then filed on the lower portion of the shafts to accept the 2 halves of the blades.
The blades were fashioned from plasticard.

Before going any further with the build, decided to fit the servo. So, a cut out was made to accept the servo and a platform fixed in place.
All the electrics were then temporarily rigged for confidence check - all working ok.

Once again, removed all non-fixed items, taped off rudder and prop tubes then cut away a portion of the motor mount bulkhead (for later cockpit rebuild).
Rudder posts have now been epoxied in.

A card template was then made and transferred onto 4mm ply to make the rear bulkhead. Cut out rough then sanded to final shape. Same for for'd bulkhead, with an additional cut out to accommodate the battery.

Finally for now, the running gear was rigged again and tested, both on the bench and in the test tank (bath tub) and all is working normal - thank goodness.
Almost forgot to mention - the propshafts and rudder shafts were greased BEFORE going in the water. %)

A few photographs....

Photo 1: Getting things lined up.
Photo 2: Component parts for tiller fabrication.
Photo 3: Rudder manufacture under way.
Photo 4: Servo rigged ready for testing.
Photo 5 & 6: Electricals temporarily rigged. (note the rx in bag to avoid dust contamination)
Photo 7: Lining up the rudders prior to tightening down.
Photo 8 & 9: Electricals tidied up and rigged.

Regards,

Ray.
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ChrisF

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Re: Another Huntsman rebuild
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2017, 12:07:00 AM »

Progressing well now.

As with the rudder etc. it's interesting for me as I picked up a MFA Spearfish kit with a fibreglass hull that I intend replacing the plastic superstructure in timber.
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