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Author Topic: Sad state of our society  (Read 6627 times)

Steve Dean

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Sad state of our society
« on: December 14, 2017, 08:36:51 pm »

This week our Club has been contacted by an organisation that's part of the County Council looking to visit our sailing facility with a group of children as part of their education. In principal we were delighted to help ....... HOWEVER, they are now asking us to provide proof that our members have been CRB checked, compliance with the Health & Safety at Work Act, proof of Public Liability Insurance, etc, etc, etc.

Surprise, surprise, we have written to them and politely declined to help.

I know of several Clubs that no longer have Junior membership because of the extent of this sort of thing. In fact in our Club we only accept Junior members if they are the offspring or relative of an Adult member.

AND ...... we all wonder why there are no youngsters in our hobby.
What a sorry mess humanity has got itself into!


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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017, 08:46:17 pm »

Tell them to plan a field trip to the pond, to let your club know.
All the regulations can then be applied to the city/county park.

If you all just happen to show up in the park at the same time it should all work out.

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gingyer

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 08:48:38 pm »

as a youth instructor I can tell you....these people are idiots!!
if they are asking for these items then they are too stupid to let near your club!

1) You as a club are not required to have CRB as it is their organisation that is attending you and it is them that are in charge
there for the responsibility falls on them to ensure appropriate behaviour and them who are in charge not you

2) As the organisers it is them who require the public liability insurance, NOT you they organise the trip they are responsible

idiots like this really get others a bad name
 
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TomHugill

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 08:57:52 pm »

It's like when people pull the supurious health and safety card, which usually translates means "we haven't done a proper risk assessment and don't want to be sued".
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gingyer

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 09:01:39 pm »

It's like when people pull the supurious health and safety card, which usually translates means "we haven't done a proper risk assessment and don't want to be sued".


Yeah, they cant be bothered so expect others to do it for them  <*< <*< <*<
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bfgstew

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 09:03:08 pm »

Umi doesn't understand how the British system works......lol.
There are employees of our councils who make it their duty to make life impossible, the letter of the law is all they understand. We call them jobsworths...... >:-o
I am all for ensuring our children are kept safe and from harm's way, but there must be some common sense involved.


My son has done a month in Tanzania through his school and an outside firm. It was to help those less fortunate than us....building schools, teaching English, build wells......etc etc. The amount of paperwork, disclaimers, permits and money very nearly put us off letting him go. Glad we did really as it was a fantastic experience for him, so much so he is now raising £5500 so he go and do the same thing but in Ecuador next year before he goes off to Uni.


Please world let common sense prevail...... :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 09:11:39 pm »

It is often the case that the people quoting the 'rules' don't understand the legislation supporting them. As Gingyer says, the responsibility for the kids lies with them just as it would if they were visiting anywhere else.

People simply don't think these days unfortunately.

Same with 'elf & n safety. People assume things without actually reading the requirements which is why playing conkers is deemed to be life threatening.

What we have lost over the last few decades is an understanding of common sense. And this has been compounded by the belief that if there is an accident that 'someone' must be responsible but never the victim. People need to learn and accept responsibility for their own actions.

Colin
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kinmel

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 09:20:21 pm »

Our club has no problem with junior members.

Our Safeguarding policy document is issued to all new members and to every member when they renew annually....

Child and vulnerable adult protection policy.

Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club does not permit any junior member to attend the lake unless accompanied by their parent,guardian or responsible adult, or if other arrangements have been agreed with another adult, then a letter of permission must be lodged with the Secretary, who will report this to the committee for their approval. This arrangement is deemed a private childcare agreement and is therefore not the responsibility of Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club, or its officers. This also relates to any vulnerable adult.

No CBMBC member is allowed to approach any child, or vulnerable adult, without either the presence of or express permission of that child’s or vulnerable adult’s parent, guardian or responsible adult.

No photograph of any person under the age of 18, or vulnerable adult, may be taken without the permission of the parent,guardian or responsible adult, although general photographs that incidentally include such persons are permitted.

Any CBMBC member accused of inappropriate behaviour with a child or vulnerable adult will be immediately suspended from the club, the details referred to the relevant authority and that member will not be readmitted until said  authority has investigated the matter. In the event of a conviction, the said member will be expelled from the club. Inappropriate behaviour is classified as:-

1)Physical harm of any kind.
2)Threatening behaviour.
3)Bullying.
4)Any form of discrimination due to Race, Cultural differences, Gender, Disability or sexuality.

The CBMBC Secretary is the Designated Person to whom any complaint should be directed.
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john44

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 09:46:08 pm »

I am finding this topic very interesting, our club have two slowed down club 500 boats that we let
Children have a sail off. They sit on a seat with the tx neck strap placed over their heads and
the control in their laps, and instructed by a club member and parents there to observe
Their child sailing a boat. We do have club insurance wich the council insists on.
But the club members instructing the child are not CRB checked is it wise to continue letting
The youngsters enjoy having a sail or is it better to cease this activity for health and safety
Reasons. We do have a h&s officer but he is not always there.


John
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derekwarner

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 10:06:53 pm »

It's a dogs breakfast in Australia.......each State has adopted its own rules instead of our Prime Minister decreeing a National one set of rules for all

In Victoria...anyone & everyone having any dealings with children MUST have Working with Children Police Check & Accreditation

In NSW.....the vagaries of the Legislation are so  %% ....maybe MUST......maybe NOT .... so only Lawyers will get rich <*<......but it is was so simple.........

As the Secretary of a Co-operative Steam Society [with children as customers of model steam trains] at the time of the introduction of the Legislation....I reviewed the documentation and erred on the side of sensibility

I submitted my details to the Government Office at 0800....by 1100 the same morning I had my Government Working with Children Police Check & Accreditation

It is a generational thing, a number of our older members were cynical of computers searching their records.......[but these same people are the ones that don't use the new fangeled computer thigies].....

Derek

Derek
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john44

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 10:21:03 pm »

Just done a google check and where children are concerned you need a enhanced DBS check
Costing £69:86 CRB check is not good enough.


John
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Bob K

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 10:25:09 pm »

We recently had our annual Night Sail at Black Park, a couple of hours sailing after dark.
This year the Park required a formal Risk Assessment from our Secretary. 
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inertia

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 11:06:00 pm »

"Where did you buy that, mester?"
"How much did it cost?"
"Does the propelly go round?"
I just ignore them and they eventually go away. Usually works with their kids, too.  >:-o
DM
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RST

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 02:55:35 am »

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Quote
understanding of common sense

As I keep arguing with my boss -there is no such thing as "common sense"!!!!!!!!!  It's a phrase which creeps-in more and more as an excuse but "common sense" doesn't mean much at all!  Ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers, ask 20, get 20 differerent answers.  It's when trending is done which says xx folk made xx the same mistakes again and again -a change is put in place to try to prevent occurences but everyone retaliates back "common sense" should have and "nanny state rules" etc.....  I've done far too many HSE investigations over the years (I hate the patronisig mocking term "elfin safety") , and I cannot agree with "common sense should have..." arguments because it's just too subjective.  Period.  My mum, an OAP had to get CRB clearance to deliver library books in the community ...to OAP's.  She didnt't like the implcation so discontinued ....and moved on and volunteered elsewhere.

'tis a shame you guys need CRB clearance or whatever though these days I'm not surprised.  I think it's more important to get it and offer the experience and move on than argue about it, otherwise accept it, comply and or move on I think.
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tigertiger

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 06:11:57 am »

Just done a google check and where children are concerned you need a enhanced DBS check
Costing £69:86 CRB check is not good enough.


John
   


I would check that again John.
Who needs the enhanced DBS check? Is it a person who is a non family member/guardian with sole supervision of the child? If so then as long as there is a supervising adult/parent/guardian present you probably do not need the DBS check.


This may help
Do you need a DBS check for a one-off school trip?
Many parents or guardians may only go on the odd school trip.There could be a rotation system in use between the parents, or they may only have time to do one occasionally.
In these circumstances it’s unlikely you’ll need a DBS check. This is because teachers will attend all your children’s school trips, and they’ll already be fully vetted. However, they should never leave you unaccompanied with the children, and will make sure they have you under their supervision at all times. These systems are put in place to protect you and the children, but also mean you won’t need to get a DBS check – making life a lot easier for you as an occasional volunteer.
Source https://www.ucheck.co.uk/dbs-checks-and-school-trips/

AND

Working under Supervision
If you will have unsupervised contact with children for any period of time you will be required to have your name checked against the barred list to make sure you haven’t been banned from working with young people or children.
Schools are not allowed to check supervised volunteers against the barred list and there is no duty for an Enhanced DBS check to be obtained for them – although schools may choose to request one as they judge necessary.
Source http://brannel.com/pta-and-volunteering/
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Klunk

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 06:56:15 am »

Lol. Here is a good one. Many moons ago when CRB checks came in i was a scout leader. We regularly went camping. I had all the relevant qualifications for leading a camp on scouts side plus CRB. One camp we jad a vouple of parents along to help out. One of their sons was  injured(fell off a log) and i had yo take him to hospital. The said parent came with me. All hispital checks done bandafe applied to relevant part of body and back to camp. When i got back the child asked if he could sleep in his dads tent that night. I had sit and explain to the pair of them that i could not allow that as the parent had signed the child into my care, and that he was not CRB checked, plus i could not allow it anyway under the POR (policy organisation and rules) of the scouts. Much as thought nothing was wrong with the request it wasnt going to happen. The parent said he understood, but then packed all their gear up and went home. Come monday evening im getting a phonecall from the District Commissioner as the parent had complained about my attitude. I was then pulled before an inquiry. I was exonerated BUT that put a serious dent in my scout leadership. Having follwed the rules to the letter, being exonerated i still had to retake several weekends of training to requalify just to lead a camp, as a punishment to show the parents the District took this seriously.  Need to say i did not stay a leader for more than a year after that.
But on a serious note....when we do have a go boats, the parents must be with the child.  We never touch the child, we hand them the tx after showing them and the parents what to do. We then monitor the parent and child. It is the parents responsibility to control the child. Once time is up we ask the parent to return the tx and also thank both of them for looking after the boat.
The main thing with children and vulnerable adults is DO NOT TOUCH THEM IN ANY WAY
a simple touch on the childs shoulder can by some parents be considered assault
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kinmel

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 07:11:13 am »

Every year I  played Father Christmas at the local infants and primary schools.

A teacher brought the child to stand by me, another passed me the present and a third teacher took a photograph.

One year I was in the staff room putting on my costume and a school governor came in and asked for my CRB documents.

I have no idea who played Father Christmas that day, or ever since. 

Since most child abuse occurs in the home, why doesn't grandad, or the stepfather need checking?
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roycv

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 09:11:35 am »

Hi all, it would be interesting to know if the CRB rules have decreased the 'problem' or has it moved somewhere else? 
Just over 20 years ago I was working as a Learning Support Assistant with 5 - 7 year olds.  There was no guidance for how I should do this job on a one to one basis with the children. 
First of all they see you as another grandad and want to climb all over you, which I could see was not a good idea.  After a short time I came up with not sitting next to them but on a chair at 90 degrees behind them and this seemed to work.
At the start I was introduced to the whole school (195 I think) by the Head Mistress as someone they could talk to and be safe with.  I was the only male member at the school, all the teachers being female from 20's to near retirement age.
For me it was nice that for a time I knew all the local children and their parents were happy about it, the pay was poor but the rewards were good.
There was no money to fund my time after 2 years so I retired again.
regards Roy

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Klunk

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2017, 09:14:32 am »

I did Santa for 6 years at the mixed primary.  I was a governor there at the time as well. Believe me I was terrified of the kids......but the  mums petrified me. Kids sat on the arm of the chair..
..mums were trying to sit on my lap! After one incident where a polish lady sat in my lap it took 5 adults to get me out of the chair which had gone through the bottom! My wife, Who works at the school was crying with laughter!
Im sticking to dressing as a penguin....its safer
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LJ Crew

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2017, 09:25:59 am »

On our trip boat on the canal, which only takes 12 passengers, we ask if any of the passengers would like to steer. If any child wants to then they are invited, with a parent, to come up and steer. No accompanying parent, no steer! Our skippers do not need a DBS check, but we are always mindful of the risks involved. I will always remember a statement made to me by my scout master when I was helping with our local scouts "We are scouts, not bloody babysitters!"
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Bob K

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2017, 09:29:44 am »

There has always been a fatal flaw in the whole CRB / DBS process.
A person is checked against the various databases to check if they have any related convictions.
Organisations variously require you to repeat your CRB etc check between one and three years.
If a person CRB checked receives a relevant conviction, the day after a CRB / DBS check, the authorities feel no obligation to inform the relevant bodies who have required the check done.  That person can carry on working with children and vulnerable adults until another check process is done. 

Dumb, and dangerous IMHO. 
Relevant bodies who have requested checks should be informed immediately following such a conviction.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2017, 09:44:28 am »

In referring to 'elf & safety I was was not denigrating the concept, just being ironic. It is of course essential when used in the appropriate context and having proper procedures has obviously saved countless lives in various situations.

But there can be a tendency to use it as an excuse for not making a decision or accepting responsibility in circumstances where no regulations or good practice requirements actually apply - hence conkers. People are ignorant of the law so they play safe which, to be fair, is to some extent understandable in today's litigious world where there is no such thing as an 'accident'.

A few years ago I tripped over a kerb in Chatham Dockyard and went flat on my face but no serious damage done. It was entirely my own fault, I wasn't looking where I was going. Nearby staff dusted me down and a lady came out to enquire after my welfare. She seemed very relieved when I said that it was my own silly fault and I had no intention of suing the dockyard.

Colin
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Steve Dean

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2017, 11:43:37 am »

Wow ...... I only started this thread yesterday evening and I am stunned by the number of replies. Thank you all for your contributions.
Your responses just underpin the reason why I entitled this thread, 'Sad state of our society'.

As someone once said ....... "Stop the planet, I want to get off"

To lighten the mood ...... may I wish you all seasons greetings and may Santa bring you lots of modelling stuff.
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Hellboy Paul

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2017, 11:47:47 am »

CRB/DBS's aren't really worth the paper they are wiped on, all it proves is you haven't been caught!!
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Klunk

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Re: Sad state of our society
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2017, 11:52:10 am »

I have an enhanced DBS and believe me there is a lot of stuff on it.
Enhanced does just do convictions. If you have ever had dealings with the police in any official capacity it is on there. Im 50 and was surprised when i read mine about a raped i was witness to when i was 13!
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