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[dodes]

Just been reading about Heims and rigging the tiller rope between the roller which had wheel attached to turn the roller and it would appear then in the late 18th century on in naval ships turn to port the wheel and the rudder goes to port, also only the large ships of the line had two wheels to allow more men to operate a heavy non- power steering system.

[Colin Bishop]

This photo shows the quadruple wheel mounted aboard HMS Warrior at Portsmouth.

Colin

[derekwarner]

This may throw a Marling Spike in the works.......and our preconceived thoughts 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3UX67RjrL0


Derek......

[JimG]

Just been reading about Heims and rigging the tiller rope between the roller which had wheel attached to turn the roller and it would appear then in the late 18th century on in naval ships turn to port the wheel and the rudder goes to port, also only the large ships of the line had two wheels to allow more men to operate a heavy non- power steering system.

It wasn't just ships of the line (3rd rate and above with at least 2 gun decks) that had double wheels. Here are the wheels from HMS Trincomallee and HMS Unicorn, both frigates. In high winds at their top speed it needed a lot of force to move the rudder even on smaller ships.

Jim

[Colin Bishop]

Here is Victory's rudder - not so different from the Titanic really.

Colin

[dodes]

When these vessels got a move on there was tremendous force on these rudders, because when you consider it, they act as a brake besides giving a sideways movement, I know when I went with old sailing barge masters, they tried to sail/steer by the sails and try not to use the rudder too much especially when racing. Even on a motor vessel you could see the difference with a good helmsman as on the end of a hours run, you could see the difference to a bad un.

[Colin Bishop]

I suppose it is the same principle with aircraft, they use ailerons to steer rather than the rudder.

Colin

[Geoff]

Whilst the video commented on an exposed rope, its actually quite hard to cut. We have all tried the guns at fairgrounds, cut the string and win a prize. The string, or rope, tends to get pushed out of the way rather than cut so its very hard to get a prize.


Sometimes below decks they would also have a duplicate set of wheels and in action they would rig blocks and tackle to the end of the tiller in readiness if they lost the wheel.


Its all a question of leverage as well, because the thin wheel rope goes through blocks and tackles to multiply the force on the tiller head.


There are reports in rough weather of the steersman being hurled over the wheel when a rogue wave hits the rudder.


Later steel ships used steam driven worm drives to turn the rudder so loss of steam pressure means no rudder.


Cheers


Geoff

[JimG]

I suppose it is the same principle with aircraft, they use ailerons to steer rather than the rudder.

Colin

To make a proper balanced turn without skidding they use both ailerons and rudder, In many older aircraft designs the turn was always started with rudder before use of aileron. One of the main flight instruments is the side slip indicator, the pilot should always endeavour to keep this central during a turn.

Jim

[dodes]

When I was on the St Margarets, in event of steam/ power failure, she had two large block and tackles rigged ether side to shackle on the end of the tiller arm to steer by, thank fully it was never tried!!

[dodes]

I found this illustration of a typical man of war sailing ship rudder system, and also what at first glimpse without glasses on a diagram of a slavers stowage, which turned out to be hammock stowage on the lower deck but is also how crew were stuffed in together, believe that two watches filled up the inside with the other watch tending to the ships requirements i know Victory could not accommodate every one below deck.

[dodes]

I have reworked the pic, bit squashed on first attempt

[dodes]

Sorry I give up, in my files the pic is correct, but it is of the 1799 Bedford with a good history of sleeping conditions, Pretty awful the P.O. elected to sleep in the Hawser tier on the orlop deck as it was a good quite spot.

[JimG]

This appears to be a frigate which has a lower deck (below the gundeck) only used for berthing and as a messdeck. On ships of the line the berthing was on the gundecks, hammocks could be slung over the guns. So Victory had 3 decks they could use to sling hammocks so enough room for all. Tables were set up between guns for eating and off duty and these were stowed away in action. Each sailor was allocated a space for his hammock 1 1/2 feet wide so it was a tight fit when all were off watch in harbour. At sea it depended on the watch system how much space was available. This started as a two watch system where only half of the crew were off duty so there was twice the space for the hammock but later changed to the three watch system where only a third was on duty so less extra room for those sleeping. Generally the equivalent of modern day petty officers were allocated space next to the hull which gave them extra room.
Jim

[derekwarner]

As dodes says......


"in event of steam/ power failure, she had two large block and tackles rigged ether side to shackle on the end of the tiller arm to steer by"

This is completely standard fitment, it is in fact for Lloyds 100A1 insurance..........in a previous life, I was tasked in providing a 100,000 tonner ANL vessel steering gear pump [1 of 2] stripdown for the Lloyds Surveyor

Apart from the pump & valving, an element of the Certification was his inspection of each of two 10 tonne chain blocks, each located in it's own fixed tool locker  [just under the eye blocks welded each side to the steering gear room hull frames]

Derek

[dodes]

Still i remember walking down a walkway in a Leander and on one side there was 5 x tiered bunks the whole length, which men slid into with a little curtain to draw to give some privacy, remember my brother who's ship it was saying it's not much better anywhere else except if you was an officer?

[roycv]

Hi I remember crossing the North Sea in a gale.  It was just before Christmas in 1957 I was in the RAF being transported to Germany via The Hague in Holland.  170 of us were down a 'hold' with 5 tier bunks you had to take your kit bag with you and stuff it where you could.  One guy put his next to a deadlight that was not properly closed and the sea water sprayed in he could barely lift it when we arrived.

There was one narrow very steep ladder in and out.  I laid on a bunk and watched a loose small length of chain swing almost through 60 or 70 degrees above my head.

They really took care of you in those days!  I guessed what might happen on deck and strapped my peak cap on, as we emerged into the gale there were dozens of hats floating out to sea.

We were put onto one of various 'coloured' trains like red, green, blue whatever, we travelled for hours and hours no idea where we were, it was now night time I was asleep and a fellow traveller woke me up and said "I think this might be where you get off" 

I picked up my bag and got off, the train left, I was on my own on a railway station in Germany it was pitch black and then someone shone a torch, called my name and I got into  the back of a lorry.

I had a technical job maintaining radar equipment on Canberra bombers lots of training courses.  We had exercises for being attacked with atom bombs in which case our bombers would have loaded up and gone.  To the RAF I was now surplus and I had the job after an attack of going into the drop zone and measuring the radio activity.

When I returned I would probably have died due to radiation sickness.  I never travelled curtesy RAF again I paid my own fare.

 Happy to leave but took my training with me.

Sorry did not mean to hi-jack the thread, it just brought a small nightmare to light.

Roy

[dodes]

Reminds me of my dad's cousin story of when he was called up for national service in the RAF, he said he turned up at this camp in the middle of no where. He was shown to his Nissan hut accommodation, which had a broken window, heavy snow everywhere and it was freezing cold. When he got inside the only heating was a coke burner, needless to say he was cold most of the time, but hey ho he made 70.