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Author Topic: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build  (Read 15043 times)

Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2018, 02:18:11 PM »

Thanks for the replies Iíll keep the detail coming until it gets too much for you all  %%  or me  :embarrassed:


Nigel - Could be my next build but I am sooooo slow you probably be waiting for years!


Jim - Iíve seen your build and that is one lovely boat your going to build so Iíll be following


Ian - I think your spot on there. Fortunately the part I wanted to measure was the bearding line at the stern as the planking runs off of the frames and ends up flat along the keel. Iím just going to do it by eye and as long as both sides are symmetrical it will be okay. I think a less confident builder would struggle a bit but could sort it out with s bit of help and advice


tghsmith - I meant to say that your idea of using paint on the frames to help fare  them is brilliant. Iíve actually been using the burn marks from the lazer cutting for roughing out which I guess is the same thing


Mark
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2018, 02:27:35 PM »


Hi Mark,
Keep on with the details. My first attempt at a plank on frame was a Dumas kit, which assumed you were a Danish Shipwright. That is a neat tip about the stir sticks (would have to buy some, over here the coffee shops all use plastic ones). With the burn marks from lasers I found you had to sand them off to get the glues to stick.
Gerald.
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #127 on: March 18, 2018, 03:07:40 PM »

Hi Gerald you are spot on there mate; I learned that lesson the hard way with my last build so now all of the burnt edges are sanded clean.


I've not much to update this week as the faring process is a slow one for me to get to a point where I'm happy with it.  I'm sure that you could get equally good results without going to the hassle that I do but thats just me.  Any way I thought that I would post a few pictures of my technique of getting this right.


Firstly its difficult to see where you are sanding as matching one frame to another involves so many different angles.  I get around this by marking the frame with pencil to see where I am sanding.  The far edge is my guide and requires no sanding as otherwise I would loose the shape of the frame and therefore change the shape of the hull.  This marking is done time and time again.





Once I've taken quite a lot of the excess material off I then only mark the highest point on the frame; again using pencil.





And then keep making and sanding until I get a clean sweep on the frame.  At this point the frame is just about right.





This process is laborious and time consuming - Its the sort of thing whereby I have to do a couple of hours work and walk away for a while.  It works for me and will make the planking a whole lot easier in the long run and something that I believe is worth spending as much time as necessary to complete.


I've got it wrong a couple of times which has involved bring the frame back up using my favourite coffee shop stirrers.  I have also found that CA is not good for this job it just doesn't seem to give the quality fixing of aliphatic resin.











And finally this is how I check to see if the frames are correct.  I use a 3mm diameter plastic rod and lay it across the frames.  I prefer this to using planks as its got a very small contact area and shows up the smallest of errors in my work.  This little rod has become my nemesis  {-)
Ignore the strengthening on the frames its the light coloured frames that matter.








And thats it for now.  I've got lots of sanding and repairing to do but I am enjoying it which for any hobby is the most important thing.


Thanks for looking - Mark  :-)
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tghsmith

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #128 on: March 18, 2018, 04:05:02 PM »

time spent fairing the frames will all be returned during the planking and hull finishing,, looking great..
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IanJ

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #129 on: March 18, 2018, 05:17:02 PM »

Hi Mark,


Lovely work. As you say, the the most important aspect is enjoying and gaining pleasure from the build process.


Cheers


Ian
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Rmay

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #130 on: March 19, 2018, 02:52:09 PM »

Mark I am enjoying your build thread. I'll be starting the same kit next month when I get back from a family vacation. I have to say I've learned more in your thread than anything the booklet has taught me so far. My version will be "slightly" less complicated with an electric motor instead of steam. Right now, Iím only in the planning stages trying to rectify the ladder (Google image from another build) going to the 2nd deck?? I do not want to take away too away much from the charm of the design, but there are a few items still to be sorted out Ė at least in my head! Thanks for posting and as far as Iím concerned please be a descriptive as you want. I for one do not tire from the detailed explanation.
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #131 on: March 25, 2018, 12:44:19 PM »

Hi Rmay - good luck with your build  :-))   Your electric build should cause you less issues than I have as I've really had to knock the hull around to get the steam plant to fit.


A small update which doesn't look much but there have been plenty of Mark hours put into this.


First up I marked out the bearding line and cut the rabbet on the keel for the planks to sit in.





Unfortunately I discovered that I had been a bit too heavy handed when I faired the first two frames at the bow.  This meant that I had to build them back up again with some wood and then reshape them to the correct level.  This is very tricky as its all done by eye and took me several attempts to get it right.  Now I know it doesn't look exactly amazing but I now know that its right.  I have also finished fairing the one side of the hull.  In this photo you can also see the finished repair on the 3rd frame back.  Honestly these low points are literally slivers of wood and nothing else.





I've also marked out the stern and skeg to where the planking goes too.  This has really caused me to think about how the planking must be done.  Ok I'll try my best to explain.





This is a double planked hull and the planks on the skeg sit on top of the skeg and are proud of the surface. Now if I put both layers of planking on top of the skeg it will not look right as it will be too thick and stand too proud of the surface.
So I only want the second layer of planking to stand proud - So the first layer needs to stop 1.5mm short of the finished line and also be rebated into the keel so that they sit flush.  So my next jobs are to repeat the same jobs on the other side of the hull and then rebate the bearding line at the stern so some careful chisel work is needed to get this right.  I'll get some pictures up to explain this better when I've done it.


Here's a couple of pictures showing the transitions between the frames on the finished side.  Goodness this takes ages but is worth it.








Thanks for looking - Mark  :-)
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southsteyne2

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #132 on: March 25, 2018, 01:43:10 PM »

Hi Mark fine job you are doing ,If I may suggest filling the stern section with balsa as the planks may be too narrow and as I assume it will be painted should look ok
Cheers
John
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #133 on: March 25, 2018, 02:14:57 PM »

Hi John that's a lovely hull that you are building there with some really twisted planks too that look nice and straight.  Thats a difficult thing to get right and your looks perfect  :-))


I have thought about putting balsa into the stern - but wait for it - famous last words here.............I'm going to try and plank it first as I see this as a real challenge.  Lets hope I win  {-)   If not its balsa all the way  ;)
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #134 on: April 02, 2018, 02:46:52 PM »

Hi All


I hope that this photo explains better what I was trying to say with regards to the keel and skeg.  I have now chiseled out a tapered rebate so that the first layer of planks sit flush against the keel on the skeg.  The second layer of planks will sit on top of the first layer and therefore stand proud on the skeg.  The first layer is 1.5mm inside the final finished line too so that the second layer sits where it should.  If that sounds complicated you should try working it out with limited instructions  {-)





This was done on both sides and I'm quite pleased with the transitions between the frames.  I've lost count of the hours of work that have gone into getting this right.  The other thing that I became aware of is as i was cutting the rabbets on both sides the keel strength lessens and becomes quite vulnerable to snapping off.  I just treated it very easily to save any damage.





Then it was a good clean up to get rid of any dust and I also used white spirit to get it spotless ready for the planking.  The hull was put back onto the building board to make sure everything was straight and level.





Now this is where I have had to stop due to the way the first plank is installed.  The picture below shows where the very first plank is laid following the line of the top of the bulwarks.  To fit this plank it must be bent and twisted through both planes which ironically goes against planking in general by not being able to let the plank lay naturally.  I can see why its has to be done this way and because its the top plank the curve should reduce as it comes lower down the hull.  Anyway I've tried and tried and I've realised that this plank is not going on without being nailed to I've ordered a tool for the job.  The plan is to fit three planks on the bulwarks to add some strength and keep the whole thing straight, and then turn it over and start at the garboard plank against the keel.





I hope that all makes sense?


Mark  :-)
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #135 on: April 08, 2018, 12:03:25 PM »

I've managed to get a bit more done but not much due to having man flu  :((


Now this first plank has caused me a few more issues than it should have to be honest.  Firstly the picture on the plans which shows where the first plank goes is really just a "This is roughly where it needs to go" picture and is just a representation.  The builder has to make their own decisions and I have had to try to get the best possible position mainly by eye.  Anyway as per usual it has taken up lots of hours and in the end I just stopped over thinking it and put it on.


The other problem was that I found that the stern wanted to twist when the planks where installed due to the twist in the planks applying pressure to the frames.  I cured this first by making a temporary support at the stern which looking at the pictures is a bit over the top  %%





Then the first plank went on and I've tried to keep a nice clean sweep in its lines as the plan suggests. I gave it a bit of a soak in some warm water but this lime wood is very flexible without getting it wet.





And it was extremely satisfying to see that all of the effort that when into cutting the rabbet has paid off. A nice clean joint on the bow with the plank.





And then for the other side - I've used a mixture of brass push pins. map pins and clamps to hold them in place.  The brass pins have been left slightly proud as they are all coming out once the aliphatic resin has set





It doesn't really look much, but this is quite a mile stone for me in this build.  Its also one that has really made me think about how to get the best result from the planking.  I just hope that I've got it about right.


Thanks for looking - Mark  :-)
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southsteyne2

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #136 on: April 08, 2018, 02:38:42 PM »

Hi Mark usually the first plank is the garboard plank which is the one next the keel then continue with exact pairs on each side. O0
Cheers
John
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #137 on: April 08, 2018, 03:17:28 PM »

Hi John - yep I fully agree but the plans on the kit say that this is the first plank to be laid (well in Italian).  My plan is to put 2 more planks below this first one on each side to give the hull stability and then turn it over and make the garboard plank.  That way I can then come off of the keel straight with the following planks as a said in my previous post.


I'm sure that the reason for this is due to the way the frames are supported by the false decks that are supplied with the kit.  I guess that normally the basic framework would be fixed to a board upside down to keep it all straight.  Therefore the garboard plank would be the place to start and build from there.  Bear in mind that this is my first POF build so I do need to follow the instructions up to a certain point.

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southsteyne2

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2018, 02:35:47 AM »

Hi Mark I really hope that you don't find my comments derogatory ,but as a scratch builder and thrown at least one crooked hull in the bin ,lesson learned ,and without the help and advise from fellow Mayhemers I doubt I would still be building model steam boats.
I am not into kit models but it can be seen on your plans that some planks will be pencil point thin at bow and stern ,will the model be painted or glass fibre?
Cheers
John
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southsteyne2

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2018, 03:10:31 AM »

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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #140 on: April 15, 2018, 01:51:15 PM »

Hi John all comments are welcome on this thread as everyone has a different point of view, and I like the way fellow Mayhemer's care about each others builds.


The hull is to be double planked and then it will get a coat of resin and cloth and be spray painted as I've had nice results doing it this way before.  Ignore the picture on the plans as its just a rendering and is not really representative of the model as I've discovered going along.  I shouldn't get many thinly tapered planks as I'm going to use drop planks and stealers.  Getting around the propshaft is going to be tricky though.


Anyway I've planked the bulwarks and they have come out quite nicely.  This is quite important as the bulwark supports are all removed once the deck is in place so it needs to hold its shape on its own.  I have had a little but of clinkering on the bow due to laterally bending of the planks but nothing thats bad and its only slight. I shouldn't get anymore as further planking doesn't need to be bent that way. The hull is also nice and straight so here's a few Pictures.


The planks are fitting very nicely into the rabbet on the stem











The planks cut to length at the stern





Looking from the inside








And above at the bow stem





They are glued using aliphatic resin as I like to glue the planks together along their entire length which seems to remove any springiness that can occur.  So far so good and the next stage is to turn the hull upside down and make the garboard strake. Then I'll start planking from the keel upwards


Mark  :-)
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southsteyne2

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #141 on: April 15, 2018, 03:04:48 PM »

Thanks Mark all looking good ,here is another link that may be helpful http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=152945
cheers
John
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IanJ

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #142 on: April 16, 2018, 09:06:02 AM »

Hi Mark, lovely work. What's the design / configuration of those clamps with the knurled barrels?


Ian
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tghsmith

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #143 on: April 16, 2018, 10:32:27 AM »

https://www.micromark.com/Planking-Clamps-10   I'm sure there are other sources..
https://www.hobbytools.com.au/hull-planking-clamp-set-3-16-and-larger/
I've seen some made from thick aluminum channel with a thumb screw that clamps from the frame side..
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #144 on: April 16, 2018, 12:54:40 PM »

Thanks Ian and yes they are Micromark clamps. They are good but could quite easily be made to save a bit of money
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2018, 05:10:17 PM »

Hi All


Sorry its been a while but I've been busy at work and I also came across a problem that just completely stopped me in my tracks due to lack of experience.  More of that later but here's what I've been up too including many mistakes!


Firstly I completed the bulwarks which needed a 1/2 stealer dropping in. There is quite a change of angle as the planking goes downwards and no plank can be bent to accommodate this so a full plank was required below.  This is the first stealer that I have ever made and was quite pleased with the fit





Which immediately showed me that I had not shaped the stern correctly at all





So to cure this I steamed the stern piece so that I could see the correct shape.  I marked this out and reshaped the stern which also meant that I also had to reshape the very rear frames too.  In hindsight this was foolish of me not to do this in the first place - oh well we live and learn  O0











Rather than loose a whole plank I removed just half of the old plank and then clamped a new piece in place





And the results were far better which was pleasing - Another benefit of using a stealer at this point was it removed the lateral bending of the plank too.  This was not planned it was just pure fluke but hey I'll take it  {-)











Next to make was the garboard plank, and I started this by making a paper template.  I had to go and buy a flexible edge - I've not used one of these in years  :embarrassed:   I pinned the paper in place and then put the next plank along onto the frames to mark out its shape





I then joined up the dots so to speak





And I ended up with a template that looked like this





Which was then transferred to the wooden plank which was then soaked for a couple of hours and clamped in place to dry on the hull




















I ended up with a nice fitting plank once it was dry.  This lime wood also holds it shape nice too  :-))





Unfortunately I then came to a grinding halt  <:(   I realised that after I had made the garboard plank I had nothing to reference it too.  By this I mean that I did not know if it was too far up the bow stem and was it too wide at the stern?  It dawned on me that there's more to planking than just banging a few planks onto the hull and hoping for the best.  This must be so obvious to most of you but I thought that I could just kind of work it out as I went along - wrong!!!!!


I'm glad to say that I have managed to sort out my problems but I've been typing for so long with this post I'll get some more up later and let you know how I got out of this self made hole.


Thanks for reading - Mark  :-)

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dreadnought72

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2018, 06:29:42 PM »

Hi Mark,


All looking great so far. There's a well-known risk of running the garboard planks too high up the bow - as it's so easy to do - but (of course) it causes big problems later. My penny would say:


  • Lightly pencil on how many planks you think you'll need at the widest frame amidships.
  • Run these 'virtual' plank runs fore and aft, pencilling them on the frames as you go - you'll get a feel for any stealers you'll need. As few as possible is, of course, best.
  • The fairest curves will land on the bow and their 'most comfortable' spot - go with this, and trim the garboard to suit.
Keep it up: I'm loving this.  :-))


Andy
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2018, 08:31:36 AM »

Hi Andy  - Thanks and I have to agree with all of your comments and advice  :-))


Now this is where I discovered that the planking was not going to be as straight forward as I had hoped.  I put a few full width planks onto the hull and the results can be seen below.  The planks rise very quickly at the bow and start to overlap.











I did some looking on the internet at other builds of this boat and I couldn't find any that had all of the planking running from stem to stern? I guess that because this model is painted the planking can be done in just about any way as long as you get the shape of the hull correct.  However I see the building as a learning process and I want to see if this hull can be planking with all planks running from stem to stern.


So totally lost with what to do, for the last few weeks I've been reading books and articles on hull planking.  Now this it would seem is a very subjective topic and there are so many different methods that I became even more confused  {:-{   Many builders it would seem calculate the best fitting width of plank for their hulls and then go and make them. Well mines a kit with 7mm planks so they need to fit one way or another.  In the end I just simplified what I think all of the information was saying.


1. Let the planks lay as naturally as possible
2. Plan the planking run so that as few stealers and drop planks are used as possible
3. Break the hull build down into manageable widths by using temporary battens
4. Use these battens to work out the tapers of the planks
5. Whether I like it or not nearly all of the planks will need to be correctly tapered to fit


Now as my planks are 7mm wide I decided to plan my planking based on sections of three planks at a time.  I bought some thin strips for the battens and marked out the bands at midships and then let the battens follow the hull.  I think that I've had some success but I'll let you all be the judge of that by your comments  :-)

















I've placed 4 battens down from the bulwarks and 3 battens up from the keel.  This leaves me a gap of 34mm between the two sections that will need filling with about 5 plank widths.  I think that this is just about the best I can do and I'll soon find out when the planking starts.  I'm going to mark the hull and remove the battens and somehow transfer the marks to the other side as a guide.  I'm not quite sure how I'm going to achieve this yet so if anyone has any ideas I would welcome them.  I can also see that getting around the propshaft is going to be a nightmare but I'll do it one way or another.


My favourite photo of the build so far is this one  O0  I like the way the battens swoop up the stern





Sorry for the war and peace update with so little progress in terms of actual building.  But this has been quite an education for me so I thought it best to share - Mark  :-)
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dreadnought72

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2018, 12:56:31 PM »

Hi Mark,


Quote
5. Whether I like it or not nearly all of the planks will need to be correctly tapered to fit

Looks very much like it. As it's a kit, question #1 would be: do you have enough planking material to taper each plank?

The battening process is always a good one - it's used on (full size) clinker dinghies all the time. I've seen builds of those where literally weeks have passed, with the builders tweaking batten positions fractions of an inch at a time to ensure that the plank runs are fair and visually attractive. Of course, in this instance, for a carvel-built hull where the eventual planks will be invisible under paint you don't need to be quite that cautious, but I'd agree the goal is a good one: full-length planks, running naturally, will always make for a stronger hull.

As for transferring batten positions from one side to another:
  • Mark the tops or bottoms of each batten on each frame with a pencil.
  • Remove the battens.
  • For each frame, butt up a thin strip of paper to the keel.
  • Copy the batten positions onto the paper.
  • Transfer across to the other side.
  • Install temporary battens on the other side to check the marks and to ensure frames are symmetrical.

A divider's handy for checking batten marks, too - one point set on the keel/frame corner, the other set at the batten mark.

Apologies if this is all obvious!

Andy
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Mark T

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Re: Panart/Mantua Anteo Steam Tug Build
« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2018, 03:29:28 PM »

Hi Andy


Would you believe it; this is a typical kit that does not supply enough planks to finish the job for the average builder.  You only need to make a few mistakes and you will run out - oh well thank goodness for Cornwall Model Boats who have a nice stock of strip wood  :-))


Having now marked out my planking runs (well on one side) I actually think that 7mm planks are far too wide for this build.  The hull changes shape and direction often and I think that 5mm planks would be more suitable.  So my second planking may be done in 5mm which actually would make fewer overlaps in the gaps of the first layer.  I guess its just something else to think about over the next few months.


Thanks for the advice regarding marking out the other side of the hull.  Funnily enough I will do this on the second planking but having thought things through I'm just making two of each plank for the first layer.  Its going to be a bit quicker even if it doesn't turn out completely symmetrical and I'll see just how good my marking out is - or should I say isn't  {-)


Today I've had a go at making the first 3 planks below the bulwarks which I've had to make a drop plank to stop them crowding on the bow or becoming splinters at the end.  Its turned out ok and I enjoyed working out all of the measurements so that the joins occurred on the frame rather than being in the middle of nowhere, and that no plank is tapered more than 50% of its original width.  Its another first for me and my budding carpentry skills  {-)  Hopefully I'll have a bit more of an update in a couple of weeks


Mark  :-) [size=78%] [/size]



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