Topic: Boiler/Gas Tank Testing (Read 10153 times)

Steve Dean · « **on:** March 06, 2018, 12:47:42 pm »

Some you may be aware that the Model Engineering Liason Group (MELG) comprising representatives from the Southern Fed, Northern Fed, 16mm Garden Railway Association and I believe someone from the MPBA have been meeting for many months to agree the separation of the 'Green Book' into 3 parts. One of the reasons for this is to cope with very small boilers, i.e. below 3 Bar/Litre that typically only have one means of putting water in the boiler. Out of these discussions has come the requirements for hydraulic testing of gas tanks.
I am told that the test pressure for gas tanks in garden rail size locomotives will be mandated at 600 PSI.
What about steam boats ?
The gas tank in a typical small scale locomotive does get very hot and can reach very elevated pressure, therefore, I can understand the 600 PSI test requirement in this application.
However in a typical steam launch (as an example) the gas tank if often a reasonable distance from the boiler. Therefore, I would like to ask the question; Does anyone know what the requirement will be for gas tanks in this application?
I called three manufacturers of gas tanks for model boats today and they each test to different pressures, i.e. 275, 330 and 375 PSI.
I would be interested to hear input in this respect, as I have a number of members in my local Club who are very concerned because they attend events and are worried they will be asked to show gas tank certificates for 600 PSI.
If you are knowledgeable about the changes to the Code please reply asap.
Many thanks.

pendlesteam · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2018, 07:15:58 pm »

Nice to speak to you today Steve. The requirement quoted of 600 psi = 41 bar will still (according to current regulations) allow a gas tank of up to 1 litre volume before it moves from SEP to the next grade of validation, so from a purely legal perspective nothing will have changed. My gas tanks are made entirely from brass and during R&D I did test them to 500 psi with no problem, but they are not nor never were designed to withstand such high pressures, and are certified to 300 psi at the moment. If this regulation were to be retrospectively imposed it would render almost every gas tank made within europe for the steam community as scrap, not least because the thin gauge copper which most tanks are made of will simply distort out of all reccognition if exposed to such high pressures. Let us hope this is not the case.

Steve Dean · « **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2018, 09:25:11 pm »

Hi Nigel ....... thank you for contributing to this thread.
By now it was hoped that the MELG would have published the new 3 part Code but so far nothing has been put out.
I started this thread in an attempt to provoke (in a nice way) some input from someone with factual knowledge as to what is going to be the requirement re gas tanks where model boats are concerned. I'm hoping someone from MELG or the MPBA will add to this thread.
As you correctly state, if the requirement for gas tanks to be tested to 600 PSI is applied retrospectively then everyone has a problem.

At the time of writing this, 76 people have read this thread already, so there will chatter going on and hopefully someone with factual knowledge will make a statement soon.

Klunk · « **Reply #3 on:** March 06, 2018, 10:50:52 pm »

as a matter of interest what are the cans of butane pressure tested at? my biat runs off a can and as i understand it does not need a certificate for this. my boiler does of course!

Klunk · « **Reply #4 on:** March 06, 2018, 10:52:03 pm »

ps steam boat phil might have some input on this

Steve Dean · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2018, 10:40:25 am »

Hi Klunk,
Now you're into a 'grey' area. The typical can of Butane that we all use has a gas pressure of around 30 PSI but I've never seen a can showing a test pressure and you certainly don't get a test certificate with one !
Interestingly, I've seen fairly large scale steam boats with a round camping gas type container located somewhere near the bow. In this situation an event organiser would be within their rights to ask to see a test certificate for this container.

Much of the current situation has come about due to the discussions within MELG and this has been very centric to the fact that gas tanks in garden railway locomotives get very hot. This is why I am trying get clarity where model boats are concerned.

I am going to PM 'Steam Boat Phil' as he could very well have some input on this.

Klunk · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2018, 10:50:22 am »

the gas canister does not require a test certificate as it meets a higher set of criteria for the transport industry etc. my question still stands about what the criteria is. it would be ridiculous to set a higher pressure for the gas tank when this can is lower! if the gas canister rating is good enough for transit and handling in warehouses then a model gas tank should be the same!

Steve Dean · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2018, 11:53:39 am »

Klunk ...... there is a fundamental difference ..... in a model garden railway locomotive the gas tank is in very close proximity to the boiler and can reach very elevated temperatures and therefore very high pressure. This is the reason for all the deliberations by MELG.

The problem is that if the Green Book stipulates that ALL gas tanks have to be pressure tested to 600 PSI, then we all have an insurance problem with the gas tanks in our model boats that were tested to a lower pressure.

Just in case anyone thinks I'm being alarmist, as Chairman of a club I need to make sure that our boiler inspectors and members know the current situation. Also as I have said above, many of us attend events and none of us want to walk into a situation whereby a well informed safety official refuses to let us operate as we are non-compliant.

PS. I'll PM you my home number if you fancy at chat on this subject.

Klunk · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2018, 01:09:06 pm »

but we are not talking about garden engines, as per your question "is to cope with very small boilers, i.e. below 3 Bar/Litre that typically only have one means of putting water in the boiler. Out of these discussions has come the requirements for hydraulic testing of gas tanks."
there is a massive and very fundamental difference in the way they operate. rules for garden steam railways are different due to the location and size of said tanks. so you are saying that my steam engine in my boat, run on a commercially built butane canister, that is used in building sites, campsites and in housholds up and down the country do not conform to what??? that would mean they would be illegal to use due to health and safety?????!!!! they MUST BY LAW CONFORM TO A SET STANDARD. if a modelling institute say that that standard is not good enough, then where do you get your info from and the proof to refute it? or perhaps im missing the point???

Klunk · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2018, 01:12:40 pm »

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1801831.pdf

Klunk · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2018, 01:14:06 pm »

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/12d3/0900766b812d3a91.pdf

Steve Dean · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2018, 04:22:28 pm »

Klunk ..... we need to be a bit careful ...... we are on a public forum and I don't want people to think that you and I are having an argument. Heaven forbid, we've known each other a long time.

Let me try and be a bit more succinct. The potential problem is that some model boat clubs are affiliated to the Northern Fed/Southern Fed and some clubs operate at sites which are part of a model engineering club. As part of these arrangements, boiler testing is carried out in accordance with the 'Green Book'. Therefore if the revised 3 part Green Book states that gas tanks have to be tested to 600 PSI, then we a have a problem.

Please don't mis-understand why I started this topic. Me and my club boiler inspectors do NOT see a need to test gas tanks in model boats to 600 PSI and nor do any of the manufacturers that supply model boaters. However, we as a club are affiliated to the Northern Federation and therefore to issue Test Certificates we have to be compliant with the Green Book. Hopefully you can see the problem.

As I said earlier, I've sent you a PM with my home number ........ give me a call.
Cheers
Steve.

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2018, 07:40:59 am »

Hello chaps, the chap on the MELG group from the MPBA would be me

Now not to confuse things at the moment but a quick heads up on gas tank testing, all gas tanks are to be tested to 400psi (boats trains and aeroplanes if you have one.
The new 3 park books have now been approved and are going for print.
I also have all the details of boilers under the 3 bar litre and the new regulations regarding them.
These I can put into an information should people require it (believe me you really don't need the whole book, same for gas tanks)

LJ Crew · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2018, 08:24:12 am »

Yes please Phil. Also quote your references please. Most of the steam stuff I am involved with is steam trains under the 3 bar litre limit. Since most could be regarded as "toys" and much of it was made many decades ago there is no way that it could be subjected to anything other than a visual inspection and demonstration that the safety valve is working. Cheers John.

SailorGreg · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2018, 08:27:00 am »

Phil - how does the book address the use of commercial disposable gas canisters? I imagine there is a standard to which they are manufactured but how does that stack up against the 400psi requirement?

Greg

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2018, 08:33:17 am »

Hi John
As there will be a lost of intrest I will prepare some information sheets with the new regs on, should have them done by the middle of next week and I let you all know.

Greg, the commercial available tanks do not need testing, and we have looked at all the ones available, I won't go to deep into what we (the MELG) have been through regarding their test pressures, needless to say 400 psi for our needs was (after a lot !!!!)of discussions and consultations decided upon.

Phil

Klunk · « **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2018, 09:13:06 am »

phil.....any chance of training on boiler testing??? maybe at mayhem . .

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2018, 09:32:30 am »

I think that can be arranged no problem

Steve Dean · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2018, 03:24:00 pm »

Hi Phil ........ brilliant to hear from you ....... I was going to PM you this evening.

We as a Club are affiliated to the Northern Fed therefore I should receive the Full new code in due course ....... however I would welcome information from you as well. At least we will viewing the code from a model boat perspective (although I'm also a garden railway owner).

If the gas tank pressure test is to be 400 PSI, then this needs communicating to the trade asap. As you will have seen from my previous posts, I called three well know suppliers to the model steam boat sector and none of them currently test to that level.

I'll PM you my home number, as there some other aspects that it would be worth us having a chat about.

Many thanks for your input.

Mark T · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2018, 05:05:05 pm »

Thanks for this post because as a new comer to steam I have found the information very interesting. I am interested though in getting hold of a green book. Could someone please point me in the right direction. I've also just had a look at the certificate for my gas tank and it was tested to 500 psi so I guess mines Ok under the new testing regs.

Steve Dean · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2018, 07:12:56 pm »

Hi Mark,
I don't believe an individual can get a copy of the 'Green Book'. They tend to be issued to Clubs that are affiliated to the Southern or Northern Federations of Model Engineering Clubs. However as 'Steam Boat Phil' has been representing the MPBA at the MELG meetings then I presume he will get a full copy as well.

When the revised Code is available (hopefully later this month), I'll check on availability and let you know.

Best regards
Steve.

steam up · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2018, 09:32:03 am »

Given that a large number of commercially produced gas tanks have been tested below 400psi will these require retrospective testing?

normc12 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2018, 10:13:30 am »

Hi
I believe the new three part regs are being proof read as we speak. They are planned for printing very soon and I am informed by NAME that they will be published on the Northern Association of Model Engineers website, soon after printing.
Norman Andrew
(Cheddar Steam Club Hon Sec.)
http://www.cheddarsteamclub.co.uk/

Steve Dean · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2018, 10:39:40 am »

Hi Steamup (Gateshead)
Your question is one of many that I am pursuing answers to. Many gas tanks in use would probably fail (or suffer distortion) at 400 PSI as they were not designed for this pressure.
As soon as more information is forthcoming then I will add it to this thread.

derekwarner · « **Reply #24 on:** March 13, 2018, 09:19:58 pm »

Without needing to buy into this question, as we in Australian have boiler and other pressure rated vessels covered by a strict set of Rules according to our AMBSC Codes

Having said this, a tank gas designed for use under previous UK regulations for a Test Pressure of 25 Bar [~~375 PSI] will not necessarily fail at a Test Pressure of 400 PSI. The design factor of safety would however would be reduced

A tale of two cities?.....where there is smoke a fire may exist? or is a storm is brewing in the tea-cup?

Derek

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Author Topic: Boiler/Gas Tank Testing (Read 10153 times)