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Author Topic: INVINCIBLE Too!  (Read 10573 times)

Bob K

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #100 on: August 29, 2018, 08:48:56 AM »

Thank you for your excellent tips Geoff.  I may try your tape method on Agincourt, having previously used black marker pen on the plank edges.  Love how you are doing the fittings and deployment rigging on the torpedo nets.
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raflaunches

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2018, 08:59:35 AM »

Thatís what I was worried about too especially on the area around P and Q turrets being very noticeable if it isnít straight. My Dreadnought was done in the same way but I didnít put the plank cuts on- something I may rectify later in the year.
At least when they sail together youíve got the extended funnel top on the fore funnel to help identify them but I know what you mean- I have a V/W class destroyer and my mate has one too- the only difference is the flag position and the pennant number! Very confusing!
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #102 on: October 22, 2018, 02:01:13 PM »

Some progress pictures as of yesterday. With the secondary armament the 4" embrasures show the sight holes each side of the barrels.


Courtecine (brown) is sued for the decks. These still have to be market out in gold 1mm pinstripes. Real Courtecine was fixed with a glue and brass edging strips round the structures. It all adds to the detail.


Also the finished torpedo net booms and rigging and a couple of davits on the hull for use in port.


Cheers


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2018, 02:02:39 PM »

A few more shots


Cheers


Geoff
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dreadnought72

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2018, 10:07:19 PM »

Awesome!  :-))  And really sad, in a way.


I see that the clearance at the back of P turret is marginal: could a sailor squeeze through the gap?


Andy
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ballastanksian

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #105 on: October 22, 2018, 11:53:43 PM »

It's good to see good progress being made Geoff. I assume polishing the brass strips was another activity for the crew to do regularly?
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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2018, 08:39:16 AM »

In most photographs P turret is facing the other way as is Q. This puzzled me until I realised most pictures are taken during peacetime. In war time or when expecting to engage the enemy I suspect the direction of the turrets were reversed as otherwise for P turret to engage on the starboard side it has to turn 270 degrees whereas if faced the other way it only has to turn 90 degrees.

So, yes, the gap is narrow and the crew could pass through the gap but in peacetime with the turrets facing the opposite direction there is plenty of space as the turret overhang at the rear is the opposite side. This give day to day advantages for crew movement but in action the crew wouldn't be running round on deck anyway.

Also for modelling purposes if I want to fire a four gun broadside I need to link the turrets in pairs, so A & Q facing forwards and P and Y facing aft so I only need to turn each of them 90 degrees each way.

In practice its a little complicated as I need to turn A & Q to port then Q and Y to port as there isn't clearance between the rear of the turrets and the adjacent guns. I suspect in real life they would elevate the guns to give clearance.

The ships were originally designed for 6 guns to fire forwards, 6 on the beam and 6 aft to give all round shooting. In practice neither P or Q could fire within 5 degrees of the centreline due to blast issues so forward aft was really limited to four guns.

There was limited room for P & Q to fire on each side but only if the adjacent turret was out of action. In practice (Falklands) they did give 4-8 gun broadsides but the blast effects were very unpleasant.

Typically ships of the period only fired 50% of their guns at any one time to reduce the firing cycle. A 12" gun can fire 2 rounds a minute but if each turret only fires one round at a time this drops to a salvo every 15 seconds, so a higher rate of fire overall.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2018, 10:06:33 AM »

Beautiful work Geoff, as always.

I have often been bemused about design compromises in naval architecture around that time.  Despite being significantly longer than equivalent battleships the turret layouts of battlecruisers appear to be compromises that do not allow maximisation of all-round fire power.  Effectively a six gun broadside (without blast damage), and with both fore and aft ranging limitations.  Superfiring turrets would come later, the open rangefinders in turret roofs limited that at the time.  However, in the Falklands the principles were very effective.

P & Q turret layouts do make your control system look potentially copmplicated.

I continue to watch your build with great interest  :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2018, 06:37:15 PM »

Yes, I agree, a lot of quite fascinating compromises around this period. Dreadnought and some subsequent classes (including initially the Lion class BCs) had the foremast mounted behind the fore funnel which could make the spotting top uninhabitable and made director firing very difficult. Apparently the reason for this was that when Jellicoe was on the Board of Admiralty and in charge of ship design he decreed that this should be so as it facilitated mounting a derrick at the rear of the mast to handle the boats. Not one of his better decisions.
When the Lion class were designed Q turret was mounted amidships between boiler rooms which greatly limited its firing arcs. This was remedied in Tiger which had Q turret between the boiler and engine rooms with much improved firing arcs. There were suggestions that Tiger's design owed something to the Japanese Kongo class, designed and built by Vickers but this has not been confirmed. Tiger was a clearly superior ship to the Lions and one does wonder why the earlier design retained the amidships turret when there was a better option.
In addition to Geoff's points re salvo firing above, broadsides tended to be avoided if possible as they put a lot of strain on the ship's structure although this didn't prevent Agincourt enthusiastically firing off full broadsides at Jutland!
Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #109 on: October 24, 2018, 08:24:16 AM »

Sheís coming along nicely :-))
Iím currently at Coningsby rescuing a jet so Iím behind on my Invincible but at least I can see your progress. I must admit that I need to get a move on to take my Invincible to Warwick again, it feels like Iíve achieved very little this year!


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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2018, 09:31:13 AM »

From my readings all the Battleships and Battlecruisers were quite capable of firing full broadsides if required but sustained firing put a strain on their hydraulic systems.

In British capital ships the turrets were turned and the guns recoil and return/elevating systems were all hydraulic and with higher elevations the systems were often at maximum capacity. By splitting the broadside a higher rate of fire could be achieved and this increased the hydraulic reserve capacity.

With hydraulic systems there was much duplication (for action damage) but essentially there was a pressurised ring main of fluid. As power was taken off the pressure dropped and steam powered (piston) engines automatically increased the flow from the hydraulic pumps so the system was kept in balance. Sustained firing by all guns could lead to some starvation which slowed things down.

Whilst half salvo's increased the rate of fire to as little as every 15 seconds we need to consider that at long range it can take 30 seconds from firing to fall of shot so unless you know you are on target you still have to wait up to 30 seconds for the splashes to show you if correction was needed. Once on target "rapid fire" would be introduced to smother the target. Observation would then show if you were off range or bearing when half salvo's would be introduced to find the target again.

Nick, if you are bringing your Invincible to Warwick, I'll bring mine as well so we can compare notes!


Cheers

Geoff

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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2018, 09:33:09 AM »

I meant to add that the ammunition supply and transfer were also hydraulic so further demands on the system

G
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raflaunches

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #112 on: October 27, 2018, 07:01:34 PM »

Hi Geoff


Yes, my Invincible will be at Warwick with other WW1 era vessels on the Wicksteed Park stand. I can't wait to see yours, seeing your recent pictures has given me the same idea regarding the tripod masts- hope you don't mind me borrowing your idea. I've rebuilt my conning tower and associated deck as I wasn't 100% happy with my first attempt- good thing it wasn't glued on! See you soon. :-))
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2018, 08:32:21 PM »

Hi Geoff


Great to meet up again at Warwick and compare Invincibleís. I was having another look through some my books tonight and found another picture which you may not have seen before as I havenít- Iíve had the book for years and not seen the picture until now! Itís in the updated version of RA Burtís British Battleships of World War One showing the refit at Gibraltar in Jan 1915. It appears that there is a tiny gap between the armoured conning tower and the upper casement 4Ē gun- as we suspected itís too small for a man to get around. Anyway hope this is of help.


606-F52-D9-D926-4-D4-A-844-B-B56-EBFC47-E6-D" border="0
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2018, 01:40:44 PM »

Nick,


Yes, great to catch up and discuss the compexities between pictures and plans. I do like your deck planking, its comming along very well.


Yes, I was aware of the picture and I think that is probably why I left a gap between the 4" gun and conning tower, but again like you had forgotten the picture. Typically structures were not rivited to armour as in drilling the rivet holes it creates significant weaknesses so that may explain the gap.


The Battlecrusier book I mentioned is called:


German Battlecrusiers of World War One - Gary Staff and is £29.25 on Amazon. It has some remarkable pictures and plans of action damage. A very interesting book and one of my favourites. I would definatley recommend this.


Happy modelling!


Cheers


Geoff
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Colin Bishop

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2018, 04:00:44 PM »

I wasn't aware of that book Geoff - Lookig at the reviews I'm really tempted.
Colin
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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2019, 08:43:47 AM »

Its been a while for an update. I finally got the ship yard workers back to work after Christmas and the New Year! Okay some progress I have built the latice framework support structure for the boats aft of the mainmast and between the forward two funnels. I used 4mm brass "I" beams soft soldered together for the main structure and then platicard "I" beams for the fill in pieces. These fit quite neatly inside the "I" with some adjustment - these were superglued in. Both structures are painted but the aft one looks very strange from above as its quite large, but the dimensions are correct.


Also I decised to cut down the forward funnel and re-build the funnel top. I now have three equal height funnels and it looks much better. I decided that with the anti-torpedo nets and tall topmasts I wanted to build it would have been inconsistent to have a tall forward funnel (which was increased in 1915) also there being little evidence the anti-torpedo nets were refited after her return from the Falklands. Photo's also show her with short topmasts at this time.


I'll try to get some pictures posted.


Next step is to order the planking for the deck.


Cheers


Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2019, 11:35:25 AM »

Good news Geoff  :-))  Can't wait to some pictures    O0
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ballastanksian

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2019, 07:39:43 PM »

Definitly as I have these frames to do on the Armoured cruiser some time in the future.
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raflaunches

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2019, 09:17:16 AM »

So youíve succumbed to building a younger Invincible!


I agree that the funnels being the same height do give it a better appearance than her two sisters.
Mine as been laid up since Warwick whilst I finished off the ASRL and some renovations on other models for the upcoming sailing season. Next job is finishing the quarter deck planking.


Looking forward to seeing the pictures.
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2019, 07:01:03 PM »

It's been on the books for a few years as I got a set of drawings as a part Chrissy present in 2013.
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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2019, 01:40:27 PM »

Finally some progress pictures taken this weekend. The major change has been the decking - planked in 3mm x 1.5mm lime. I decided to joggle the planks as well. The basic method was to lay a single centerline plank and all the margin planks. Note that margin planks need to wider on the deck edge and superstructure and barbette areas to allow for the actuall joggling process as quite a bit is cut away during the process.


Joggling is only done where the "snape" is twice the width of the plank - if its less then you don't hjoggle hence some parts of the superstructure arn't joggled and others are - it depends on the angle.


For the barbettes I used a disc of limewood split in two with an extra 3mm plank on the centerline. This gives me wider margin planks each side but normal depth fore and aft.


The caulking is black electricians tape. A number of planks are laid edge on (using a jig) then the tape pressed on. Turned over and each plank cut away so you end up with a 1.5mm black stipe down one side. The ends were simulated with a graphite pencil. I have yet to put in the butt ends so still some work to do.


Cheers


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2019, 01:43:16 PM »

I meant to add the gold lies represent brass edging strips whuich were used to hold the courtecine down (Think lino). This was used as a non slip surface where crew stood to protect their feet from cold steel. It was glued down in large sheets and held at the edges by"L" shaped brass strip riveted to the deck which was then hammered down. It all adds to the detail.


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2019, 02:07:23 PM »

As an add on Invincibles rangefinder appears to be fixed in the foretop - maybe that's why they lengthened the foretop. In the aft position it was on semi circular tracks so it could be moved around the maintop and locked in position. The rangefinder could then rotate as needed. This arranagement was quite common on lots of early dreadnoughts so I'll need to build this into the model as well.


I'm a bit puzzled as what to do next!


Geoff


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ballastanksian

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Re: INVINCIBLE Too!
« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2019, 08:46:33 PM »

Maybe starting on the horrid boats might be worth considering! Love the details and planking Geoff.
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