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Author Topic: Irving Harbour Scotland  (Read 3238 times)

jviewing

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Irving Harbour Scotland
« on: September 10, 2007, 07:37:42 pm »

Victorian and I were up in Irving last Thursday, I was pleased to see that the City of Adelaide is still there, but only just! the word is she will be broken up as soon as the Council can afford to pay for the operation.  Also at the harbour is a very sad RAF Vosper with a broken back.
Seem there's no money for ship preservation in Britain, which is a shame when you realise that the Adelaide(1864) is older and in more original condition than Cutty Sark(1870) also a composite clipper.
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jviewing

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2007, 07:42:42 pm »

Some shots of the RAF Vosper
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westcoaster

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2007, 09:59:57 pm »

I can't comment on the funding, or lack of it for Ship preservation in this country. I don't have enough information. What I would like to say is that, in my opinion the organisation running the operation at Irvine are making a really poor job of it. Most, if not all, of the vessels there have been allowed to deteriorate terribly over the years. That RAF launch looked fine when it arrived there. Another "turn off" in my view is the history of some - for example they have the lifeboat T.G.B. which was at Longhope and in which all of the crew were lost. I really don't think it appropriate to the memory of these brave men that this boat is steadily rotting away at Irvine. Then there's the Antares, a Fishing boat into whose nets steamed a nuclear sub, pulling her under with the loss of (I think) 3 of her crew.I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
More in sorrow than anger
Douglas
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gingyer

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2007, 10:33:08 pm »

I can't help but agree with westcoaster,
I know that the site at Irvine got several million for
restoring the city of Adelaide.....your picture says it all.
I also remember being on the Antares just after it arrived and the crew were lost
after the nets got caught up with HMS Trenchant and the thing that stuck in my
mind was the "tour guide" was trying to use the boat for some sort of ghost ride
completely out of order !
The best thing I can think of is that the Lifeboat and the Anatares are moved from there
where they will be treated with respect

Colin
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tobyker

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 12:25:57 am »

Me too - there is a really interesting little wind turbine yacht which was obviously given to the Museum after some Glasgow Uni research project and she too is just falling apart instead of being played with. The trouble is that maintenance esp of things that are not used is so expensive and since there is no other reason for anyone in their right mind to go to Irvine, and once you've seen the maritime museum there's no reason to go again, there can't be much dosh coming in. In the Lint House there are several really interesting little Rob Roy type canoes, but once you've seen them.....

Maybe all the little maritime museums should get together and buy a low loader and shift some of their exhibits around now and again - " this week only, come and see Miss England III at irvine!!!"

There is quite a nice steam crane on the Harbour, but that too is slowly rusting away - and I don't think even the Museum is taking any interest in that. 

I think one of the problems with the Adelaide is that the builders want their yard back, and she is too far gone to move.
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GLASGOW WARSHIP TEAM

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 12:34:24 am »

just an update the carrick, i.e. city of Adelaide, is to be broken up the museum got the OK to do so, as its to far gone to restore.
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victorian

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Re: Irvine Harbour Scotland
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 10:51:24 am »

The sub-plot to the Adelaide story seems to be a wish to re-develop the land for a marina.

How hard would it be to make it a condition of development that developers fund the move of the ship to a safe haven?

I can't speak for the condition of the ship as there is no way to get inside. However local opinion is that she could floated off onto a barge.

The bigger issue is where could she go? The Sunderland initiative seems to have made little headway. It seems clear that if she had been laid up on the south coast then she would have been restored by now. As it is, she is at the mercy of disinterested local bureacrats instead.

We might be forgiven for thinking the 'demolition' plan started out as a tactic to force a resolution of the problem. Unfortunately this mad, cruel, dispicable plan is just what the bureacrats need to allow their frustrated development plans to move ahead. So there seems to be a completely real risk that it will actually happen.

However 'far gone' the Adelaide is, she's far more complete than Cutty Sark was even before the fire. The only original composite clipper ship left in the world, a ship that a significant proportion of the population of South Australia can trace their ancestry through, and she's been left in the tender care of a local council! Surely we can do better than that.

What she needs is a haven where she can go under cover in an industrial style building to protect her from the weather. Total cost a small fraction of whats being spent on consultants for the Cutty Sark.

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taxi

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 12:09:37 pm »

I was down in Ayrshire a couple of years ago and went to the maritime museum at Irvine to pass the time while swmbo went shopping with her sister.    I was surprised to see the old Carrick  on the slipway and I think  that it is tragic that such a ship is being left to rot.     Click on this link for more info on the ship,    http://www.sunderlandmaritimeheritage.org.uk/adelaide.htm       As for the museum building itself    (bearing in mind the number of famous ships which were built on the Clyde),      http://www.princes-regeneration.org/bestpractice/linthouse.htm     why take a 40,000 sq ft building apart brick by brick and shift it about 20 odd miles to what can only be described as a secondary location.    Sorry if I have offended any residents. 
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cdsc123

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 02:26:40 pm »

The RAF launch is a Groves & Gutteridge type 60ft Air Sea Rescue Pinnace derivative of the more famous 60ft General Service Pinnace. She is number 1262. There are more pictures of her here;
http://www.bmpt.org.uk/boats%20for%20sale/Pinnace1262/index.htm
She is still free to a good home, it is however very unlikely she will find one.
The majority of the damage was caused when she sunk due to neglect, and was not raised in time- the waters froze around her, destroying what was a valuable WW2 relic.
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BarryM

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Re: Irvine Harbour Scotland
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2007, 02:42:19 pm »

May I inject a few facts into this thread?

Irvine (not Irving) harbour holds many vessels and the fact that they are there does not indicate ownership by the Scottish Maritime Museum Trust (SMMT). There are several, in various states of repair, that have no connection with the Museum whatsoever, e.g. "the interesting little wind turbine yacht" which is still owned by Glasgow University but receives no support or maintenance from them.

The Museum was reasonably funded in the days of Strathclyde Region and EU grants (now both gone), although never to the extent that it was able to open year-round. It has teetered on the brink of insolvency more than once and is run with the minimum of staff. For years funding has been doled out from the government on a three-month basis such that the staff  have never been confident of a long-term future and the Lottery Fund would not contribute. The attitude of the latter has been 'you cannot demonstrate long-term funding and so we cannot give you any?' Catch 22! Thus it’s been very much a case of targeting what funds were available and inevitably some parts of the collection have suffered. This has not been for lack of any effort by the Museum, it is simple economics and the Museum Director, his staff and all the volunteers have become adept at getting a quart out of a pint pot. They should be recognised for this achievement and not slated.

Despite all this, recently the Museum became accredited by the Museums Council as the holder of the Scottish National Collection of maritime artefacts. This will mean that the long-term funding of the Museum should be assured and allow new applications to the Lottery Fund. The snag is that the present budget of the Museums Council is insufficient for all the demands of several museums upon it. Thus, watch this space as they say.

Re. the City of Adelaide, owned by the City of Adelaide Trust and not “the local council”, the SMMT has been trying to obtain funds for her restoration for 13 years and in this time every interest group under the sun has said she should be preserved but none of them has contributed a penny – certainly not the “several million” claimed as a fact in this thread.  When a certain businessman came along last year who was prepared to fund the restoration in full, a structural survey showed that it was too late. She is far from “complete” and by the time all the rotten wood and rusted iron was replaced, the result would not be a restored City of Adelaide – it would just be a replica. Thus the decision to apply (successfully) for planning permission for ‘Recorded Deconstruction’ i.e. save what could be saved to demonstrate the reasons why CoA was important, film and record the rest and thus save something for posterity. It’s worth noting that neither Sunderland nor Adelaide have requested any part of the vessel and as for “local opinion” that says she can be floated off on a barge, the probability is that she would break up if any attempt was made to move her bodily. The world is full of ‘experts’ on the CoA; few of them are realists.

The ‘Antares’? Yes it was a tragedy that led her to arrive in Irvine but the cold fact is that she has no historical significance in ship design terms that would lead to money being spent on her and the Museum has to harden its heart and target its funds.

The Linthouse Building itself? Why was it moved to Irvine? Because the building had historical significance and if it had been left in Glasgow it would have been rubble years ago. Have you been to John Brown’s lately?

The restoration of the Puffer ‘Spartan’ is nearing the final phase, the 108 years’ old coaster ‘Kyles’ is on the slip. Next in line is Carola, (probably) the oldest seagoing screw-propelled steam yacht in the world.  Now all those who claim to care about our maritime heritage will be pleased to here that your help with these projects in terms of time, material or cash will be very gratefully received. Which one of you will be first in line?
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tobyker

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 12:28:42 am »

Thanks Barry, that was helpful. I was by the harbour this afternoon - the wind turbine yacht has gone, but I was very impressed by seeing the now rather smart Spartan back in the water.
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BarryM

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Re: Irvine Harbour Scotland
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2007, 09:10:00 am »

One more point. Don't forget that the Scottish Maritime Museum is not just the Irvine complex. The Denny Ship Model Experiment Tank in Dumbarton and the Clydebuilt Museum at Braehead are also owned by the Trust.  The Denny Tank should open many modellers' eyes on how a ship is designed and Clydebuilt is fascinating in following the progress of construction. Clydebuilt won a "Best Small Museum" award in 2005.   All are worth your support.
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jviewing

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2007, 07:03:45 pm »

First may I apologise for starting this thread by misspelling Irvine as Irving. The real reason was to see if there is any future or interest for the Carrick (City of Adelaide) As an ordinary member of the public it seems almost inconceivable, that a ship that has survived from the nineteeth century could be at this late stage indanger of destruction.
While to the powers that be and many far worther people than me, are stating that she is beyond repair and if restored would only be a replica. To me that does not make sense, If that is the case what is the Ferreira or is that the Cutty Sark? Great Britain, Victory or just about any wooden ship surviving today The fact is the ship exists and could be conserved if there was a will to spend the money on its restoration or at least conservation. Back in May when the Cutty Sark fire happened, it was anounced that the demolition plans were to be re-considered. When I was at the harbour I was told that the council had to find the money for deconstruction, true or untrue its purely academic, as it seems everyone has given up on it!
It make me ashamed that 35 million can be found for the Sark which is in no way original or at the moment complete, but nothing for the Adelaide. The BBC NEWS stated that at least 10 million was required, I bet they have spent more than that on consultants with the Sark.
One thing I am sure about is that the people at Irvine have done their best against impossible odds and lack of funding.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6676245.stm
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BarryM

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Re: Irvine Harbour Scotland
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2007, 07:56:10 pm »

"..if there was a will to spend the money... ". There you have it! Over 13 years every avenue has been explored. The earlier bid a few years back for planning permission to scrap CoA was an attempt to highlight the case for preservation and twist somebody's arm to fund restoration. Of course Historic Ships, the Duke of Edinburgh, Sunderland, Adelaide and every interest group (rightly) deplored it BUT none put their hand in their pocket - it was always down to somebody else. When somebody came along who was prepared to put almost unlimited funds into the vessel (and proved it by funding the special covering over the decks) an independent survey was commissioned and, as said, this showed she was just too far gone. If you want a replica like the Cabot or Golden Hind etc., then fine - that's your choice - but it would be cheaper to start from scratch than try to ressurect the sad ghost on the Irvine slipway. What chance do you think that will have of funding? By the way, Recorded Deconstruction will not to be funded by the North Ayrshire Council. The first step has been to put together a team of experts with knowledge of maritime archeology, naval architecture and conservation who will monitor and advise on the project. Money will have to come from the Heritage Lottery Funds.  It is ironic that the plight of a Scottish-built, Mississipi river steamer is being raised in the press but the fate of home-based vessels is being ignored. It's a sad, sad case but as I mentioned above, there are other vessels at Irvine which also need saving and equally deserving your concern. Will you make a donation of cash, time or materials? (I have.)
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victorian

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 01:30:13 pm »

Barry M: Is the independent survey you refer to in the public domain? I'd certainly like to read it, for one.

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BarryM

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 02:14:52 pm »

The survey was commissioned by and paid for by the businessman who wanted to restore the vessel. Thus, it is not in the public domain. Given that he was very keen on the restoration, I think you can take it that the result made pretty dismal reading.
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victorian

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 02:56:36 pm »

I see your point. So where's the harm in releasing it? It would take a lot of the heat out of this debate. As you have said, there's a distinct shortage of facts surrounding the imminent demise of this wonderful old ship.
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jviewing

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Re: Irving Harbour Scotland
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 05:10:21 pm »

I would like to second that!!
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BarryM

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Re: Irvine Harbour Scotland
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2007, 09:04:47 pm »

Then I suggest that your write to the Museum Director and request a copy. By the way, nobody seems to have answered my question about what they will contribute in terms of time, materials or cash to maritime heritage preservation at Irvine. Can we have an answer on that - and a few more seconding their determination to do something?

Barry M
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