Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor  (Read 520 times)

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,273
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« on: May 12, 2020, 02:20:22 AM »

It appears that many British Battleships [both pre and post the Dreadnaught Class] had a 3rd Fwd anchor on the Stdb side


It also is apparent this anchor does not have an exposed [above deck] anchor windlass drum  :D


Does this anchor have a below deck windlass drum?........if so, what was the engineering basis for this?


Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Liverbudgie2

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Earth.
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 11:29:15 AM »

This is the sheet anchor which was fitted in all major RN vessels up to WW11. Other navies fitted them as well, some though were fitted to the port side though. some might have had a separate windlass fitted for  this anchor but, I can't recall seeing any pictures of this arrangement. Its purpose was that of of an emergency anchor apparently. In this case the cable from the starboard anchor would have been slipped and re-attached to the sheet anchor.


LB
Logged

tghsmith

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 119
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: raleigh NC
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2020, 12:55:05 PM »

if the "third" anchor was used it was a dire situation,, getting driven ashore, and yes it did happen,, hoisting it back up was the least concern when your worried about keeping water under the keel and staying afloat,, odds are one or two of the other sets of ground tackle were gone,,
Logged

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 715
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2020, 03:59:49 PM »

I have a suspicion that it was also used to moor the ships at their permanent mooring buoy. The anchors could be "Cock o bill" something like that but hung from the ships side with the chain disconnected. On Invincible there are external chains fitted for this purpose. The "anchor" chain then being attached to the buoy so they could slip away quickly.


Cheers


Geoff








Logged

John W E

  • I see no ships !!
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,530
  • Location: South shields
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2020, 04:45:36 PM »


Hi there


I wonder if this will help - 2 scans I have taken from 2 books - one Manual of Seamanship Vol 1; 1937;   and  2nd one is Manual of Seamanship Vol 2; 1951


Reading through the text, it appears - as Liverbudgie has said - it is for emergency / an area where they can foresee difficult anchorages - and require extra holding. 


John
Logged

tghsmith

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 119
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: raleigh NC
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 05:46:09 PM »

one has to remember that there wasn't any long range weather forecasting,,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889_Apia_cyclone
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,273
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2020, 12:10:03 AM »

Thanks LB & John WE.........however I am more confused than ever  :D


Both images here suggest that there is only one x chain [central] capstan.......which by run of line/free direction, cannot be related to the original image of the Dreadnaught


The run of steel deck plates on the Dreadnaught are installed to stop gross damage from the dragging chain into the deck planking.... from this, I cannot see that the run of chain connects with the central capstan drum [either by run of wire or chain]   <*< 


The term 'Cable Holder' in Fig 7 has me tossed, as I assumed these were actual chain hauling capstan drums built into the Foredeck of the Dreadnaught


Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,852
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2020, 07:37:37 AM »

Derek


For chain holder perhaps calling it a chain guide or pulley would help? The chain feeds around it from the hole in the deck from the chain locker below to the actual anchor. The central capston allows control of cables to assist with many things including torpedo net boom deployment.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 715
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 10:07:04 AM »

Interesting pictures - thanks for posting. Picture albeit a little blurry of Invincible side chains to hoist up one anchor either side if required.


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

tghsmith

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 119
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: raleigh NC
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 01:54:52 PM »

the first photo in this thread has a big clue in the direction of the 3rd anchor deck hause pipe,, it faces forward while the other two face aft,, nothing to impede an emergency release.. looking at US ships of the period most had the winch/windlass gear below the main deck,, but the 3rd anchors were held in quick release cradles,, the pulling of a pin allowed the cradle to pivot out while releasing the anchor outward away from the hull,, often wondered if the aft placement and the length of chain tied to the hull was calculated as a shock absorber for what had to be a violent event..
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,370
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2020, 03:11:12 PM »

This is the bow of the good ship Descartes as now owned by Bob K. So how about 4 anchors? Were the French prone to carelessness?
Logged

tghsmith

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 119
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: raleigh NC
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2020, 03:47:16 PM »

if you find good photos of ships in this era, careful searching will find "spare" anchors stored all over the ship,, often in many sizes,,  I found a good drawing of the US navy period anchor, work with a 3D printed provide them in many sizes,,
Logged

John W E

  • I see no ships !!
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,530
  • Location: South shields
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2020, 07:35:50 PM »


Hi there



if you take another look at the very first picture Derek put on - this is my understanding of the layout - after donning me wellies and oilskins and diving into the sea books this afternoon - when one looks at it - at the very top of the picture on the deck - there is a circular bit that looks like a drum.   According to the book these are only fitted to destroyers though or slightly larger vessels - but - it looks right.



   I believe this is what we call  'bitts'  normally made from cast iron and used for freeing up the anchor chain; thus releasing the capstan to take the cable from the spare standby anchor.   What we are calling 'capstans' according to the book - should be called Cable Holders - the actual capstan is in the centre of the deck.   I hope this makes some form of sense 'cos I have just about enlisted after reading all of this :-)  .    I have also been trying to find out about the admiralty anchor usages which have been shown in the last couple of photographs.  I do know HMS Exeter had one of these stowed either side at amidships on the side of the hull.


john
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,273
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 03:56:26 AM »


Looking at images of numerous Battleships of the era from Britian, US and Russian etc all appear to have anchors placed in a similar format, with the 3rd anchor path direct from the chain locker through a hawser, then overboard so designed & mentioned by LB, John and tgh as being able to be deployed in a speedy manner in an emergency


Again when we look at the run of steel protection plates over the wooden deck, that chain path would appear not to reach that central capstan, so I am still unsure of the means of general chain hauling propulsion
[/size]
[/size]Derek 
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Umi_Ryuzuki

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,159
  • Location: PDX, OR USA
    • Models and Miniatures
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 06:19:48 AM »


...

Again when we look at the run of steel protection plates over the wooden deck, that chain path would appear not to reach that central capstan, so I am still unsure of the means of general chain hauling propulsion

Derek 


It means they don't plan on using that anchor often enough to lay steel plates to the chain recovery path.
.

 ok2

dodes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 684
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 12:40:05 PM »

Must remember these ships had big crews and manhandling chain to operate on the capstan was quite common with the use off chain stoppers and wooden bars with steel edges. Naval ships have always secured to buoys with there anchor cables, today they are broken on deck with the short length left on the anchor to hold it in the hawse pipe and the chain fed out through the bull ring and if mooring fore and aft you break off what you need and the crew drag it aft if there is no mooring chain fitted to the buoy.
Logged

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 715
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 05:14:34 PM »

Also just for fun early pre-dreadnoughts had stocked anchors (they had a flat bar at the top) so had to lie flat on the deck  so could not use the hawser holes. They were a development of sailing ship anchors. Later they found stockless anchors worked just as well.


Its worth noting that ships don't just let out the anchor - they let out a lot of chain as well which rests on the sea bed to help hold the ship and act as a "spring" to prevent jerks.


For those of you who have seen the Battleship movie with Missouri being jerked round with her chain - quite impossible as it would just tear through the ships hull and rip out any fitting. Ships had chain stoppers on decks to stop a runaway chain and also deliberate weak links so should the unthinkable happen it would break rather than tear a hole through the ship.


In many cases Battleships were no stronger than merchant ships - they just carried guns and thick armor to protect them and for many the ends were not protected at all.


I agree however I'm uncertain how the third anchor would be retrieved unless by "nippers". These were used in sailing ship days as the anchor cable was too thick to bend round the capstan. They used an endless pulley system with the pulley linked by short lengths of rope to the anchor cable with "nippers" small boys who's job it was to tie and untie the strands on a continuous basis. I suspect the capstan was used for this purpose with the third anchor. The other two could be wound up using the chain holders/chain capstans.


All good fun


Cheers


Geoff



Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,587
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 06:31:43 PM »

I have prepared an article for Model Boats magazine on anchor handling in the early steam age using the models in the Science Museum as a reference. Whether it will see the light of day remains to be seen but it is quite surprising just how many variations there were and the photos of the anchor handling gear on the Builder's models are a great information resource. As mentioned above, warships were always able to take advantage of their large crews for physical manpower whilst merchant vessels needed to use less crew intensive methods.

Colin
Logged

John W E

  • I see no ships !!
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,530
  • Location: South shields
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2020, 06:56:54 PM »


Hi ya,


just been doing a bit research - trying to find out - when was the last time the Royal Navy actually used a Kedge anchor, or, the Admiralty anchor.  Through research on the web I came across the director class paddle tugs which were built in the 1950s and either side of the paddle boxes - there are Admiralty anchors - so why these were fitted, I have no idea.   It will be interesting to try and find out.
Logged

dodes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 684
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Dreadnaughts - Pre & Post - 3rd Anchor
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2020, 10:36:06 AM »

The nip on sailing ships was a short thick rope secured to the deck to act as a stopper on old sailing ships like the Victory, as the anchor warp was rope you could not use anything else. As the Nip was very low like the anchor warp the ships boys would pass the seizing rope ball under the pair back to a seaman who would tighten it and do the securing hitch, so the nickname nipper was invented for a small boy. As to the sheet anchor it was a spare emergency anchor, as RAF said there was only one capstan on the foredeck of a lot of old warships and the chain bight was led around a bit for security and when that chain was needed a working party with chain hooks would lift it off and put it through the leads required. As ships modernised so individual capstans were fitted, but chain stoppers were used and fitted to all ships to secure the anchor end to work chain. Remember when these ships anchored for a period in a restricted swinging area , the two anchors would be laid at 180 degrees and a working party using bull wires and bosuns chairs would break both cables outboard and fit a swivel in. Standard seamanship practice in Merchant and Service ships.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up