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[tonyH]

I've got a trip down to NMM to look and photo some drawings that are too delicate to scan. Can anyone recommend a camera that has a decent wide option without needing an SLR type or standing on a stepladder?

Cheers

Tony

[Colin Bishop]

Interesting you should ask that Tony. I visited the NMM last year with a friend to look at some plans. The advice we had been given was that photography was not allowed but I did take my compact camera just in case. In the event the staff were very helpful and said photography was OK for private purposes. So I photographed everything with the compact and for good measure photographed it all again with my Samsung S6 mobile phone. And guess what? The images taken with the mobile in the relatively low light were way better than the images from the compact.

In our case they had the plans ready for you and unroll them on a long worktop using weights to keep them flat. You can then walk along the worktop taking images section by section. Obviously they won't be square on but they should give you a huge amount of information to combine with other sources. Most plans are physically quite large so taking a shot of the whole sheet isn't an option. A typical example from my phone shown below.

You do get an understanding of why it costs so much to purchase copies from the NMM. We were told that they only cover their costs when supplying them.

Colin

[tonyH]

Thanks for that Colin. I'm taking a tablet/phone with me but I need to get a decent camera anyway since my old Lumix has finally given up the ghost!
The NMM have already OK'd the photo bit in their e-mail confirming that they've found the drawings in their old Thornycroft archives. They certainly sound helpful since the boat is a bit off their normal radar and it's a bit of a mystery to them as well. There's nothing in the Thornycroft stuff down in Southampton so we're all on a learning curve. The ONLY other source is a small plan/elevation in a 1921 book on marine propellers. No photos, no nothing!

Tony

[Martin (Admin)]

Beg, steal or borrow a half descent camera Tony, I think may may be quite disappointed with photos taken on a phone or tablet... notoriously difficult to hold steady in the hand....

[tr7v8]

I have just bought a Sony compact. This one https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-cameras/dsc-hx60-hx60v
It is amazing 30X zoom, takes cracking pics & is about the size of two cigarette packs.

[Neil]

I have a little Canon SX720 and am sure it has a wide angle facility, although never used it, but that is over 18 months old now ans am sure that it has been updated with even better........but my camera is a fantastic compact piece of kit.........cost me around £300, when new so a new update will probably be the same.........plus it has a 40x zoom...great for ships at sea.......but you need a steady hand for that...........and mine ate a little wobbly lol......all my photos on here are taken with it.

[Liverbudgie2]

The best way to do this is to purchase a hand scanner from Amazon for instance. I have one which works very well indeed, you will able to scan A4 sections and then join them up on your PC or whatever. A camera is not the way to go because you will end up with a lot of distortion, especially if you use a wide angle lens and are unable to keep the camera vertical.

LB

[Martin (Admin)]

Which hand scanner do you use LB?

( I've not found a reliable one yet!    )

[Colin Bishop]

In the NMM you are not permitted to touch the very fragile material and the location is such that only hand held is possible which would rule out a scanner unless held clear of the material. If, as I assume, it is in the Woolwich facility you will only be able to take images at an angle standing over the worktop so while a low light device will pick up the detail it will not be accurately scaleable.

Martin, I am surprised at the capabilities of modern phone cameras, I don't know how they do it but some can deliver extraordinarily good images.

As stated above, wide angle is a problem as it distorts the proportions at close range.

Colin

[Liverbudgie2]

Martin,

The one I have is a Tao Tronics, Model No: TT-DSO11 1050 DPI

I've had it for three or four years and not had any probs

I see now though, that they are not listed however, there appears to be a couple of reasonable ones (on Paper anyway) there now.

LB

[Colin Bishop]

But presumably they have to be in contact with the scanned document LB? Not permitted in NMM.

Colin

[mrlownotes]

To copy A4 documents 'in the field' I use an APP on my android phone - CAMSCANNER - It uses the camera, will analyse for the edges of the document. It compensates and corrects for parallax errors and gives you tonal options for the final save.

[Liverbudgie2]

In the NMM you are not permitted to touch the very fragile material and the location is such that only hand held is possible which would rule out a scanner unless held clear of the material. If, as I assume, it is in the Woolwich facility you will only be able to take images at an angle standing over the worktop so while a low light device will pick up the detail it will not be accurately scalable.

Colin,

These scanners, or at least mine does, run on rollers so the scanner itself does not touch the material with the image printed thereon. If they are so fussy he can always ask the staff to do the scanning for him, should he purchase one, otherwise he's going to be stuffed isn't he? Anyway there's no harm in asking.

LB

[Colin Bishop]

LB,

A: Much of the material in the archives is incredibly fragile. It's look but don't touch so rollers would also be a definite no no.

B. If they did allow people to come and scan their plans then nobody would buy them!

The permission to take photos for personal use is very recent. It is still incredibly useful though. In our case my friend had some not very detailed drawings which gave the major dimensions and the images taken at the NMM filled in a huge abount of detail and clarified various constructional  anomalies so that it became possible to construct a pretty accurate model.

And of course, as Mr Lownotes says, there are clever apps which can compensate for parallax. Not many cameras will have this facility.

Colin

[derekwarner]

So Tony says...."my old Lumix has finally given up the ghost''

Did you like your Lumix?...how long did it last for?..........

I have a Lumix DMC TZ11 [10x optical zoom].....13 years old now.......taken thousands of images for work prior to retirement......still as new

If it died, I would replace it with the same/todays version [now with 20x optical]

PS.....when I attended the Rolling Stones open air concert in the Hunter Valley a few years back............ Cameras were not allowed......

My Lumix hid in my shirt pocket  ...Derek

[Neil]

PS.....when I attended the Rolling Stones open air concert in the Hunter Valley a few years back............ Cameras were not allowed......
My Lumix hid in my shirt pocket ...Derek

naughty boy.............you ozzies are making a name for yourselves these days.......cheating...............shame on you..............bet no one else took a camera into the stadium............I certainly would wouldn't have done such a dastardly thing.........tut tut.

[Plastic - RIP]

Don't forget to include a metal 6" or 12" rulers  (one in the X and Y directions) in every shot so you have an exact measurement for scaling.
Also useful for stitching together multiple images that may be slightly different zoom levels.

[Netleyned]

With the No Touch rules, how do you manage that?
Pun intended


Ned

[Plastic - RIP]

With the No Touch rules, how do you manage that?
Pun intended


Ned

The rulers only need to be in the edges of the shot - not actually on the plan.

[tonyH]

Right, just to clarify a couple of bits.

1. Definitely no scanning.
2. Phone/Tablet could be an option with the right ap but................
3. I've no idea what scale (and therefore what size) the drawings will be, since they're from Thornycroft rather than Admiralty. I assumed that I'd be standing at floor level, holding the camera at somewhere near arms length over a table. I'd therefore prefer a compact type camera, rather than an SLR type. I've still got my big Lumix FZ8 from donkey's years ago and it's the baby Lumix that had a broken shutter opening system. Trying to view the screen on the FZ8 from 2-3ft away, while holding it upright and trying to determine which line I'm looking at on the plan is very iffy!
4. Ideally, therefore, a decent compactish camera with a large screen and a short focal length lens.

Current thinking is the Sony DSCRX100

Cheers

Tony

 

[tigertiger]

Just a thought or two.
In addition to photos, try using the video setting. Not to pan, but it takes out some of the problems of pointing the camera where you want it.
The shorter the focal length the greater the distortion.
Auto-focus obviously a must.
If you are going to use a tablet or phone. Most phones and tablets have two cameras, one on each side. The one on the screen side is usually lower quality, and so avoid using the screen as a viewfinder (if you are holding the camera overhead) as you will be using the poorer camera.

[Martin (Admin)]

I've got a Canon S110 for sale Tony!   

 

[tonyH]

Never raced or rallied eh Martin?

Do you want to pm an appropriate number?

 

[Martin (Admin)]

'Owned by an old lady who only took it to church on Sundays .... Gov!'

[Colin Bishop]

I assumed that I'd be standing at floor level, holding the camera at somewhere near arms length over a table.

Yes, that was right when we visited. They have special weights to hold the plan down, if it is a long section it may only be possible to unroll a part at a time. In our case I was able to lean over the plan with the phone and the compact to get the perspective shown in my earlier post. It's just that the phone returned much better images!

It may be that you could just get the best images you can and then use post production software to straighten things up and stitch the mosaic together to get a usable plan which you can then just reproduce at any scale you like. There are usually reference rules on the plan showing things like frame spacing distances etc. which helps give you an overall scale to work to. You can also get a pretty good idea of the relative scale from fittings, door and rail heights as well.

When you actually order a plan they run them through giant scanners at full size which is one reason why they cost a lot.

There is another thing which might help. We were offered the opportunity to view a pack of photos and other documentation of the vessel. These are of course much smaller in size, typically around A4 so it is much easier to get a square on image if you can use a device with a screen on the back for composing the shot.

Colin