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[Martin (Admin)]

Right lads ( and all other denominations required for legal reasons! )

Bradders and I were having a chat at the weekend about this thread.... well I say "chat" but truefully I was being "talked at!"

.... anyway, we were conversing the failings of transmitters for us model boaters,
as most transmitters are aimed at the 'fly boys' and therefore maybe not the best layout for us.

So:
A. What do we really want in a transmitter hand control?
B. What the best you have used?
C. What the best you've seen?

Can we come up with a better / theoretical design for:
1. Simple 2 channel setup.
2. 2 / 3 channel for the race boys.
3. Multifunctional setup for the Tug / merchant ship boys.
4. Multifunctional setup for the Battleship boys.

Your thoughts, comments, ideas, criticisms please......?


When we've decided on any great ideas.... we'll get Bluebird FLJ or PMK to build it!

[dougal99]

I don't see that there is much you can do with two channel sets however, I would like to see an onboard, easy, way to convert the throttle (unlike Ghost I prefer mine on the left but hey whatever floats your boat  )from self centre to ratchet and back again.

Being a stick in the mud I don't like the car type with wheel and trigger - but that's just me.

I have a 6 channel set but only use 3 at the moment so necessity hasn't become a mother yet.

Just my euros worth

Doug

[Tom Eccles]

Right, here goes.

As everyone will know I am the Forum Moron on all things electrical BUT,

I would like to see adjustable proportional control, by that I mean fast reaction to rudder (and throttle ) inputs for fast electrics and sail and scale reaction to inputs when I am playing WHOOPS sorry sailing my tugs.

Someone is now going to tell me that we already have this - see, I told you I was a moron.

Cheers
Clegg

[Colin Bishop]

Yes, we do already have these things on the mid to upper market sets. They are called Dual Rate and Exponential Controls. See aircraft related description for a Futaba set below.

No, it doesn't make you a moron. If you don't ask you won't find out. Have a Google around on "Radio Control Exponential" and see what you can find.

Colin

*******************************************

* Dual rates and exponential. These functions are controlled by using the dual-rate function screen. Only elevator and ailerons have the dual-rate function, and when you flip the switch, they are activated simultaneously. You can toggle between high rates and low rates. When you initially set the model up, be sure to set the endpoint adjustment (EPA) first because this will affect the throw distances. You could inadvertently set either or both of the dual-rate values at 0, in which case, that channel would not respond. Avoid dropping below 20 percent on any dual-rate value.

The exponential is in the same function window as the dual-rate settings; again, this works only on the elevator and ailerons. Negative exponential (-) decreases initial servo movement while positive exponential (+) increases initial servo movement. You can set the exponential curve at anywhere between -100 percent and +100 percent. This is one function you will really want to try. It will smooth your plane's control response by preventing your jittery thumbs near center stick from inadvertently affecting its flight path.

[Stavros]

What I would like to see is the manufacturers finally realising that there is life beyond blooming AIRCRAFT why the heck they cant do a ins booklet aimed at boats or is it a fact  they don't know that boat modelers exist


Stavros

[wombat]

Been thinking about this for the Gry - come up with a scheme for RC that I was thinking about for the auxiliaries....

433MHz licence exempt or 2.4GHz - 433MHz, a transciever set will be about £40 a pair - 2.4GHz will be more. Anciliaries as a set of simple PIC based modules. The scheme I have got in my mind would allow for customised layout and selection of components to suit specific applications.

It would also provide telemetry - so you could get feedback of things like shaft speed or load current. Would anyone be interested in fleshing out some ideas?

Wom

PS Out of contact till Friday - gotta go abroad with work.

[Shipmate60]

I am happy with the layout of my old Futaba Challenger Transmitters.
But if being picky, could make it expandable with sliders/switches as the F14.
And a switchable mixer between channels 1,2 and 3.
Oh yes and a higher capacity battery.

Bob

[FullLeatherJacket]

I don't think that the electronic side of things would be too much of a problem. There are some very serious teccies among this Forum's membership (no - NOT ME!!). However, the VERY limited number of sets which would be sold c/w the vast market for cars and aircraft gear would render such a set almost impossibly expensive to manufacture from a hardware point of view...

"Hello. Is that Mr Futaba? It's Mr Jacket from Nottingham here...........no.......Nottingham........in England............You know? Robin Hood, Brian Clough, Smith and Wesson.........yes - that Nottingham! I wonder if you'd be good enough to supply me with twenty transmitter cases with stick units, please? When I've sold them all I'll come back next year for twenty more......... Do you do Pay Pal, by any chance?"

Does anyone remember Launch Link radio? British-made; Swiss servo motors with metal gears (in 1970!!); servo amplifiers built into the Rx, which was the size of a brick; a black stove-enamelled Tx case with metal stick units to die for - and a price tag to match. No? Want to know why? Cheap "aircraft" sets killed it stone dead. Lovely set of gear, but very few would pay the price - £150-ish for a two-channel 27MHz AM set, if I recall. Mr Ripmax was flogging 6 channel Futaba sets with four servos, a full set of 12 crystals and frequency flags, all Nicads and a built-in charger for £125 at the time.

Come back, Idris Francis - at least seven UK boat modellers need you..... and a few more, maybe, if you'll stump up the tooling costs yourself and  agree to customise every set.....

Dream on, guys. Meantime, welcome to Planet ARTF.

FLJ 

[Shipmate60]

FLJ,
Unfortunately I have to agree with you there.
We do have a more recent example - Fleet.
Just not the market for a small manufacturer offering mass produced prices.

Bob

[omra85]

The thing is - we've been brought up to think that sticks for planes and boats (or a wheel for cars) is the only way to go.
I wonder why, when kids (or anyone) wants to make a character on a screen run left or right, jump, somersault, wield a sword, etc, etc, they use a banana with buttons on it!
Maybe it is time to write to Mr Futaba - if anyone has a tried and tested alternative.  Ah - but there's the rub - how do you know what will work until you've tried it?  Well, maybe Mr Futaba's R & D department might LIKE to receive a nice letter of suggestions!

Me - I'd like crystal free, with add-on's for telemetry, a decent battery indicator, a third channel where I don't have to let go of one of the other two to operate it, WATERPROOF, and doesn't feel like your holding a biscuit tin!  Not much to ask!!

Danny

[Ghost in the shell]

1.  FM modulation on 40mhz, lets leave the 27mhz to the rtr stuff that way we sont affect the low-end of the market when we switch on close to them.


2ch set: throttle and rudder (obviously) but to have an in-built mixing program that can be turned on to accommodate multiple motor configurations. two options, standard case with a vertical and horizontal slides.  manual end point adjust for both channels.
Backlit display giving model memory and battery status.

3 channel set up will be like the standard 2ch BUT with a proportional knob for the third channel.



For the racing guys, pistol grip radio. Perhaps a device that transmits critical telemetry back to the operator, for those using IC (yes you nutters), this may be like a fuel guage in a car, when the models fuel is running down, it transmits data back to the transmitter to give readouts of the fuel status so you know when you need to pit-in.  electric racers probably wont need it as the battery dies you will see the model slow down.  hearing a beeper against the loud zing of a piston engined boat isnt gonna be easy.  to alert the operator, perhaps a playstationesque vibration motor in the pistol grip.

Multi function radios for the battleships and tugs, this is where things get interesting.
to start with you would probably want to have 2 dual-axis sticks, with programmable elevon type mixing on BOTH sticks, to cater for left and right handed users, currently most that I know of just have elevon mixing on the right stick.  its this elevon mixing that enables motor mixing for differential thrust to be used allowing a model to spin. 

across the top of the radio, 4 knobs to allow for the operation of turrets, with two flick switches on the case for things like navigation lights.  with those who like to actually fire BB's from their guns, perhaps having the knob depress to launch a salvo.  for tugs and the likes, replace the knobs with 3 position switches.

Backlit displays would be a must.

[Bartapuss]

Trouble is with the F14 its pushing the band width when you start adding two or three of those modules and at about £65 for the TX side and £150 for the corresponding RX module it gets expensive and its a bit crude and has been around for yonks , I should know I got one of the first ones in the country way back in the late 80's. Then there's wiring up your functions to the rx module which uses - (negative) switching and according to the instruction you use a servo type lead couple the red & black together and connect your load across those two and the white, now to the faint hearted this is going to feel totally wrong and remember those internal switching components can only handle about 200 milli amps so any more than a couple of grain of wheats and your going to have to employ a relay of some sort, it all gets very complicated very quickly and puts people right off. Then on the F14 you have to remove the back to change crystal and perform servo reverse.

What we need is a cross between Pandals system, FLG's power distribution board (with some relays) and the new crystaless 2.4 gig, with simple dual axis sticks with servo travel adjust & servo reverse, a mixer for rudder throttle (for twin screw jobs) a row of say 4 on/off, 2 spring action return to off  on/off and 2 on/off/on and a row of 6 proportional knobs  and a couple of vernier sliders, a nice backlite LCD (in cool green or blue) and toggle this to a screen for you onboard skippers camera view and some add on telemetry and I'll be like a pig in s**e. 

[Martin (Admin)]

Actually, I wasn't thinking about the electronics, more the layout of the sticks / controls / sliders / switches etc.
All I was thinking of was getting a couple of squeezy bottles, a roll of sticky back plastic, some old newspapers and a tub of PVA glue ( water proof ), making up a box that feels good and the controls are where we want them and maybe ripping the guts out of a commercial transmitter to see how it works! The electronics have already been done by all the big commercial companies ( Futaba, JR, Spektrum, Sanwa, HiTec ), especially 2.4Ghz. so it maybe just a matter of matter of replacing the pots etc. with matching values.......... and no I don't want to full around with the RF circuits! Glynn Guest did a great series a few years back called 'Transmitter Trickery' if anyone remembers it!?

[HS93 (RIP)]

Just buy a Futaba FF9 less module and get the fast system, all the knobs and bells rates you would ever want and Prob cheaper than a twenty year old designed F16/18 tea tray

Peter

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Take the transmitter you get, and put it in the box you want.

One fo the locals here did that...

I have my own preferances for dual side by side sticks... ::)
And the odd button and sliders...

[rats]

What I would like to see is the manufacturers finally realising that there is life beyond blooming AIRCRAFT why the heck they cant do a ins booklet aimed at boats or is it a fact  they don't know that boat modelers exist


Stavros

Stavros I could not agree more !  I have a Spektrum DX7 which is (in my opinion ) just about perfect - but for a non techie to decipher airo instructions into what we as boaters want the set to do takes some serious head scratching !

[Kmot]

I am using the two stick aircraft radios (2.4Ghz) for my scale boats now. I still use pistol grip radios for my racing boats. As for using pistol grip radios only for racing, Ghost, well it seems strange to me but the European car racing guys use stick radios! Here in the states we use pistol grip wheel radios. I guess it just depends on what you learn with.

The new computer aircraft (well actually, no longer aircraft specific) 2.4Ghz radios have so much adaptability you can just program them for hwat you need. But yes, I agrre having some different physical switch types would be an improvement. I don't always want a single throw toggle switch, I don't always want a three postion toggle switch, and I don't always want a rotary knob. I would love it if I could order my radio with the exact switches I wanted.

For working boats, I would like a radio that has dual throttle sticks on the left, and a wheel for steering on the right. Why should it have to be a stick on the right? And I would not want the wheel spring loaded. I would want it to remain where I left it.

My radio would have rotary knobs for the fire monitors swing and sliders for the fire monitors elevation. Momentary push buttons for the horns and alarms. Toggle switches for the lighting. A left-right stick for the bow thruster.

It also would have an audible count up-count down timer, and an audible low battery alarm.

[OMK]

I'm not sure about the rest of the crew here, Umi Ryuzuki, but that Tx in your first photo really caught my eye.  It's HUGE, but it's brilliant. How many channels are there on the encoder? I tried counting all the knobs and switches and lost count after eleven.
To me those are REAL nice radios.

Nice website, too.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I'm not sure about the rest of the crew here, Umi Ryuzuki, but that Tx in your first photo really caught my eye.  It's HUGE, but it's brilliant. How many channels are there on the encoder? I tried counting all the knobs and switches and lost count after eleven.
To me those are REAL nice radios.

Nice website, too.

That "monster" radio box is actually just a Four Channel Futaba case mod by Bob Pauliny. 
He is using an MCD(Model Control Devices) switch 8 or 16 for alot of the functions.

[Roger in France]

I have little trouble with my "Fleet 7" or my much extended "F14 Navy". Maybe it is what you get used too. I prefer ratchets and sliders and "on/off" switches that give a good "clunk" so you know where you are.

However, I do think cases need to be more ergonomic. The trend seems to be curves to make the thing look attractive. I want a stable box which hangs from a neck strap and another strap to go around my waist.

If I am really fantasising, how about voice activated? Just imagine standing beside the lake...."Full ahead both", "20 degrees port" etc. Not as far fetched as it seems, my PC has a voice activation software package which does everything (not just dictation) but I do get funny/disastrous results sometimes.

Roger in France.

[dreadnought72]

Well, a couple of things spring to mind.

Firstly - that aerial. The natural tendency is to hold the tx comfortably in front of you. Which means that the aerial is more-or-less pointing towards the boat. We all know that's wrong.

So why not a seperate aerial - let's have it vertically mounted on a stand, stuck on the ground. And while we're at it, put like the bulk of the tx there, too, running off a substantial battery that doesn't need to be carried. Use bluetooth for a wireless connection from a small ergonomic hand controller to the tx. Range for these is good for a couple of dozen metres or so.

Secondly - channels, crystals and bandwidth. Imagine the internet working in that way? "Sorry - you can't log on, we've got a couple of dozen users online. Please try again later, or swap your crystals." So how about ONE frequency, with a nice fat bandwidth, and the only thing a user does is assign a password for his controller and boat. Packets of info from all users are sent from the tx, and vessels only decipher and use the ones that are directed at them.

How big's a packet? Well, let's assume a servo requires a kilobyte of data - 1024 steps is enough for anyone. Add in the ability to control 10 servos per vessel. Password data, checksums - call each packet 12 kilobytes, uncompressed. Of course, lossless compression can bring this total down, and only sending variations in state can reduce it further. Let's send these 1kb (?) packets fifty times a second. That gives us 800 models on the 40MHz frequency, nearly 10000 on 459MHz. 

Andy

[FullLeatherJacket]

So why not a seperate aerial - let's have it vertically mounted on a stand, stuck on the ground. And while we're at it, put like the bulk of the tx there, too, running off a substantial battery that doesn't need to be carried.

Talk about what goes around coming around. Is anyone else old or daft enough to remember the very first R/C sets? Yep! Ground-based transmitters with a big vertical aerial and a hand-held device for signalling - in this case it was usually one industrial microswitch that you could hear "click" from the next field. 

One thought struck me as I looked at those wierd transmitters was how few actual proportional channels are used. Most of the buttons on the big job are just that; on/off switches. As I've never seen the real point of having dual-axis sticks on a boat Tx - and it would be FAR cheaper to tool up for single axis sticks - then there's scope for a hand-held box, even if it's connected by a cable to the base unit. Let's say there'd need to be a couple of sticks for throttles/steering, and maybe a keypad for the switched functions and rotary knobs for the others e.g. gun turrets. Electronic "slider" trim pots would make the stick units even simpler - perhaps to the extent that they could be CNC-machined instead of moulded. You could very easily contrive to mount two single-axis stick side-by-side to give a twin throttle binacle. A quick browse through my various electronic suppliers' catalogues shows that you can get quite a variety of rather nice aluminium instrument cases which might serve. Some may even be vinyl-clad, just like the roof on my old HC Viva...

O no! It's that "going and coming around" thing again!

Just thinking out loud, chaps. I'd call it "brainstorming" if I had the necessary equipment......... 

FLJ

[colin-stevens]

Whatever, but make the instructions simple. got the Futaba 6 ch where you can mess with it and dont have a clue. cant make sense of the destructions. also have the F-14. will do what i want at a high cost. plus its a box, not nice in this day and age. i think that most of us agree that really all you need most of the time is at the most 3 proportianal ch, then lots of switces, be they on/off, or on/off/on.
but you cant please all the people all time,
colin

[Bluebird v2]

FLJ you have just made me feel really really old - THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH :) wooden box, with a 6 foot aerial, a lump of twin core twisted flex with a single switch on the end  single valve, with a high-tension EverReady battery on the end, battery in the box - you see its that long ago senility has crept in.  However, I do remember somethings!!! and one of them was that the receiver was a single motion that went round and round on it and when you pressed it operated the tiller to the rudder on a cam! so it was a bit hitty missy steering......aye the swans had to be awfully quick to get out of the way them days -

I think I may just stick with the Futaba six channel and Im afraid stick to the philosophy LET THE MAN WORK THE MACHINE AND NOT THE MACHINE WORK THE MAN 

Aye
John E
Bluebird

[malcolmfrary]

I usually take my boats for walk, so setting up a transmitter station is not really desirable for me.
A case that is comfortable to hold, a means of keeping the aerial vertical, possibly a means of converting from self-centre and back without pulling it to bits.
It might well be possible to arrange a self-custom area where electric lego type modules could be slotted in to the individuals requirements, but I feel that FLJ has already pointed out the intrinsic problem there.