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Author Topic: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?  (Read 7260 times)

The long Build

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Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« on: September 18, 2007, 09:32:00 PM »

Hi all at Mayhem
Some advice and information needed..

I have had for many years now, a plan of the Submarine Seaview which I purchased from Taubman Services back in 1990, however I never actually got round to building the thing.
After a recent topic was started it made me think that it is about time I got on and built it even thought it is 81 inches long, the problem to me has always been What would I construct it out of. After reading various threads it seems obvious that GRP should be used ,(it is my intention that this will be a full diving model)  This is where I have the problem as other than some basic model and car repair I have never really used the stuff and have no idea how to go about making the Plug and mould and apart from the obvious what I need to make the hull. 
All advice will be gratefully received.

Larry
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Sub driver

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2007, 11:46:44 PM »

Hello, :) I have scratch built a few subs using a male plug then female molds.

You are about to contemplate doing a great deal of hard work in order to get a working mould. First I decide what access you require to the hull and where to put that access, as this can determine how you mould the fibreglass, ie longitudinal separation of the hull etc.
After  I have decided how I am going to get into the thing when completed I build the two plugs ie tip half and bottom half, on a building board with bulkheads cut to the correct dimensions glued vertically on the board then I cut planks of wood and attach these to the bulkheads ( as you would when building a plank on frame hull ). O0
When the shape is correct you sand them very smooth and I then add details I want on the hull ie hatches rivets etc onto the two halves then when its all done you need to varnish/ paint /seal the wood again making sure it is all smooth ( any defect here will transpose itself onto the mould and finished product ).
Then you need to wax the plugs and about 2 " around them on the building board. polish this then do it again the again etc until its nicely polished.
Now you can think about the fibreglass bit, you need some wax, release agent, some fibreglass tissue, fibreglass matt, Gel coat and resin and hardener, The cheepest way of obtaining this lot I found was to source a commercial fibreglass component manufacturer and go and speak to them explaining what you are doing and ask if they would sell you the stuff, most are small buisnesses and mine was very interested in what I was doing and provided the stuff I needed at a fraction of the cost ( they use this stuff by the 45 gallon oil drum quantity ).

Now the problem is this, you have to get the moulds off the plugs so you have to decide where to split the mould, if its a simple hull ie top and bottom are smooth and round ( like a modern sub ) then you can fit a  lip at the centre line of the plug running from front to back about 2 " high, I hold mine in place with a hot glue gun on the second side i am doing, this is where the first mould will be made. You wax this lip as before then use the release agent wipe it on with a cloth ( just one way or you will wipe it off again ) when this is dry you can start to lay up the mould, you paint on the GEll cote all over the first half of the plug on the 2 " boarder and lip give it a good coat let it go hard then use fibreglass tissue cut into strips that you can easily manipulate, place these onto the gell the with a brush you STIPLE the resin into the tissue DO NOT TRY AND PAINT IT ON you will end up with it stuck all on the brush, do this all over where the gell coat is and let it go off I do this about 2-3 times to get some strength on then use fibreglass matt to beef it up . when all dry give it a day.you can then remove the 2 " lip that runs down the center of the plug, it should come away easily if waxed and release agented ok. now you do the same on the other side of the plug AFTER you have waxed and put release agent on the 2 " lip of the first mould this is where they moulds will split, when dry drill several holes through this lip  this is where you bolt it together after it has been removed from the plug. Now you can remove it from the plug I use a wide walpaper scrapper to do this you place it under the fibreglass on the building board and twist along the joins and between the two 2 " lips and you should here a loud crack as it comes apart. you do this for top and bottom hulls when removed you will have a four part mould  ( 2 top 2 bottom ) which bolt together all you now do is bolt them together wax the insides of each mould, release agent them , then gell cote the entire insides and lay up as before leave to dry and unbolt the 2 halves and prise apart then you should have a top and bottom hulls. The problem is when you have several tight concaved areas to do as you will have to mould these parts individually as if not you wont get them out of the mould and the Seaview is a bit complicated, and VERY big, why don't you scale it down ??.

As I said at the beginning it is a lot of hard graft to do this hull...but this system works and has worked for me...now you know why people buy Hulls already done !.
Standard boat hulls are easy to do but working subs ?  Sorry if i have blown your mind you did ask... ;D
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colin-stevens

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2007, 09:44:26 AM »

Dont forget to wear gloves and a pinny, and a hat , it gets everywhere, or is that just me?
Just a vague sugestion, but carbon fibre mat can come "pre-glued". stick the matt down, leave it to cure, one incredibaly stong surface. works best with an AutoClave though. so may not be very practicable.
very slightly of topic. some years ago when Sandown was worth going to there was model of, SeaView, i think. around the drive was a "split Korz nozzle" for want of a better description. Split in 4 quadrants, and they were directional. All moulded. To me it all looked incredibally proffesional, but never seen hide nor hair of it since. any clues anybody?
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grumpy old XXX

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2007, 10:24:51 AM »

Re- Seaview, David Merriman of the U.S does one I think, also Deboer Hulls and a Rick Teskey of the U.S. O0
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Subculture

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2007, 10:25:33 AM »

Are you thinking about Alan Warehand's Seaview?



It's not operational. It's gone through several incarnations, with different thrusters, ballast systems etc. I'm sure it'll work one of these days.

Not an easy subject to start out with, but it has all been done. You might want to take a peek at some of these links-

http://subpirates.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=3305&hilit=Seaview

http://subpirates.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3282&hilit=Seaview

http://culttvman.com/david_merriman_s_57__seaview.html

http://culttvman.com/richard_teskey_s_52__seaview.html

http://culttvman.com/richard_teskey_s_seaview.html

Andy

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 10:34:38 AM »

 :) heres a couple of pics of a Build ( hopefully ) O0 cheers Sub
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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2007, 12:56:34 PM »


Just a vague sugestion, but carbon fibre mat can come "pre-glued".

Isn't carbon fibre a very harzardous thing to work with? and should not be cut without a lot of precautions?

I ask coz I seem to rember reading somewhere how nasty it is to the human machine.
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Subculture

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2007, 01:21:24 PM »

Well just about all products modelmakers use are hazardous to health in one way or another. Just take sensible precautions.

Personally, I think using carbon fibre in a sub is overkill, plus it blocks the radio signal, which means you have to run an external aerial.

Normal glassfibre chopped strand matt and polyester resin gets the job done. If you're feeling flush, epoxy resin is a superior product, but it comes with a stiff price premium.

Glassfibre work is dirty, sticky and smelly. The glass strands get everywhere, in short I hate doing it, but it's one of the only ways to get a decent submarine hull, and I like unusual subjects which aren't available anywhere else (i.e. my avatar), so I'm forced to DIY.

If you can purchase a hull, then I'd go that route (Seaviews are readily available in several scales). A lot of people complain about the cost of hulls/kits, but when you add up the time you will spend building a master, moulding it then casting it (aim for at least 300-400 hours  for a seaview), kits start to look like a bargain.

Andy

colin-stevens

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2007, 02:00:53 PM »

Sub driver, whose kit is that?
dont think cutting carbon fibre is hazardous, guys did it with no precations where i worked. Machining was different though, enclosed envirement. although at the other factory the dust was everywher
yer, forgot about the blocking signal thing. any way only a vague idea.
colin
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Subculture

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2007, 03:40:00 PM »

The hulls are by Rick Teskey (8 window movie version).

The interior kit is by Dave Merriman. You can follow the kit build over at Sub pirates, byt following the second link I posted.

Andy

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 10:47:42 PM »

Hi Colin , yep as subcultures post, all from subpirates.com. O0
As I said in my earlier post a LOT of work to do your own but very satisfying when you do and them you have a mould to do more etc etc.
Not a project I would reccomend for the beginner in fibreglass though Hope you get what your after in the end.
Don't know if you are aware but You can also get the Flying sub mouldings too ;D

cheers Sub

may your bottom always  be barnacle free !! :o
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The long Build

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 11:37:03 PM »

Hi SubDriver and Subculture and all other contributors

The information, pictures ,links  and general chit chat will hopefully prove to be very useful and instrumental in helping me to build this Model.

I will follow build on the subpirates link with interest.

The information has not put me of doing the build,  however I think I will make a few much smaller test plugs and moulds to see how it all works, but will start work on the plug as soon as time permits.(clear out the smaller shed)

I can relate to not painting  on the resin as I did this repairing a canoe last year which resulted in the congealed mess you mention. 
At the moment it looks like I will build the 4 window version as shown in the first picture from subculture. It somehow looks sleaker, more menaching and real to me than the other.

I will have to get a bigger shed as there is not a cat in hells chance I would be allowed to build this in the house.(I get enough grief about basic plastic models)

Again thank you for you guidance , and hopefully one day I will be able to upload some build pictures pictures..
TLB
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Subculture

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2007, 10:19:16 AM »

Here is an excellent publication on glassfibre work-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Glass-fibre-Handbook-R-H-Warring/dp/0852428200

It was recommended to me some years back, and I have found all the advice in this book excellent. It doesn't cover epoxy GRP work, although most of the techniques apply to epoxy GRP too.

Good idea to start on something small. If you just want to try your hand at making a laminate, you can mould something already formed, like an old bowl.

Sub driver

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2007, 10:48:12 AM »

 :) Good luck with the project...keep us informed with some pics .. just a tip don't know if you know, use cellulose thinners to clean brushes etc, as soon as you have done with laminating  O0 etc dont leave the brush as it will go very stiff  very quickly :( ( and do it somewhere warm )
Cheers sub.
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Subculture

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2007, 12:21:30 PM »

I prefer acetone for cleaning brushes- i find it's more aggressive at cleaning the resin off. After that I clean the brushes with soap and water which leaves them good as new.

Andy

colin-stevens

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2007, 02:21:31 PM »

Sub, founfd that article on the flying sub once, now cant finf it any where.
did look different though
add it to the list
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grumpy old XXX

The long Build

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 08:42:42 PM »

Here is an excellent publication on glassfibre work-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Glass-fibre-Handbook-R-H-Warring/dp/0852428200

It was recommended to me some years back, and I have found all the advice in this book excellent. It doesn't cover epoxy GRP work, although most of the techniques apply to epoxy GRP too.

Good idea to start on something small. If you just want to try your hand at making a laminate, you can mould something already formed, like an old bowl.
Subculture
Thanks for the details of the book, Have put it on to the next Amazon order. . Like the Idea about using an old bowl.

Showing my obvious ignorance here but I thought that glass fibre and GRP were one of the same, I take it from the replay's that it is not.. What is the difference and which is the preferred method for building Hulls ??.
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justboatonic

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 10:05:18 PM »

Ah, the SSRN Seaview! Many a happy hour was spent watching Voyage to the bottom of the sea about 5.30 on a saturday evening!

One thing that always amazed me was how they managed to fire the torpedoes (sp?) THROUGH the flying sub and its 'hanger'! Never forget all the crew lurching from side to side as well. Great stuff!

Found this site as well which many may find interesting!

http://culttvman.com/david_merriman_s_57__seaview.html
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Subculture

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 10:32:36 AM »

Most people refer to GRP as glassfibre or fibreglass, and they usually mean polyester resin as opposed to using epoxy or urethanes.

GRP is more descriptive IMO, fibre glass merely refers to one component of GRP- the glass cloth.

Get the book and read it thoroughly, it will answer most of your questions.

One thing I always advise with GRP, is that you can never spend too much time prepping your mould.

Andy

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 05:50:20 PM »

The long build....GRP stands for Glass Reinforced Plastic, commonly called Fibreglass, there are two types of resin, Epoxy and Polyester, Epoxy is expensive but doesn't shrink much and Polyester is a lot cheeper and shrinks a bit, Polyester is good enough for what we normally want and is used in the car trade and most other applications as it is whole lot cheeper.

One thing I forgot to mention is that if you will be moulding long sections of a hull then you may need to brace the mould when laying up to stop it from " pulling " the sides in as it cures, simple to do,  just cut some ply like half of a boat stand to the shape you want and glass that in as you lay up on the plug, that way when you release the mould from the plug it wont " Pull ". it also gives you something to get hold of !

In 1998 I scratch built the British Nuclear Ballistic Submarine HMS Vanguard, the build was published in Model Boats The April issue Vol 49 No:581 2 Apr-29 Apr 1999.

It made the front cover spread and about 6 pages in the mags centre, I think it is available on back issue, you can see the plugs and moulds I made in the article it may help make things clearer...

Vanguard is still going strong today a great looking Model.

Hope it is of use. O0

Best Regards Sub. :)
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colin-stevens

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2007, 08:44:25 PM »

you all make references to waxing plug. what wax is best. can you use vaseline, car wax or a dedicated product? or is reease agent the same stuff?

cheers
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grumpy old XXX

Stavros

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2007, 09:16:45 PM »

You should use the proper wax that is available from most good suppliers such as Glassplies in Southport,release agent is a product that you apply to the mould prior to the application of gel coat,hope this is of some help.

Stavros
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colin-stevens

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2007, 09:25:21 PM »

got a catalogue from Nottcut, resin ect suppliers,cant find any reference to a wax.
getting confused because i find variuos articles mention laying down a PVA layer
cheers
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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2007, 10:24:42 PM »

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colin-stevens

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Re: Seaview Build..Using GRP ?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2007, 10:32:35 PM »

fuinnily enough just reading through that one. getting the impression all i need do is spray my plug with release agent. but not sure.
hope i,m right, hate to have another stuff up.
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