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[DickyD]

This survey is interesting as a poll, but is getting boring as to what is scratch building, and some of the prejudices come out.
My opinion is simple.
I couldn't care less, if the builder is happy with his model then so am I.
This is after all a HOBBY.
You remember, for relaxing, having fun and meeting other like minded people.
I have made some good friends and modelling keeps me out of the pub (as I tell the boss)
Just enjoy it.

Bob

My sentiments exactly Bob. Its a fun hobby in which I've made many friends. Some take it too seriously.

[Captain Anonymous]

Colin, It is diffecult to put in to words what every one can understand, I am not having a go at kit builders or scratch builders , each to his own, but I got hounded off this site by one of your members for saying I was a scratch builder, I changed my name and came back after a pm from martin, so now I say im not a scratch builder and I do buy a few parts, at nearly 69 I think thats not to bad,

[J.beazley]

Im with both Richard and Bob on this without this great HOBBY and wonderful FORUM i wouldnt of met some great like minded people.

I enjoy what i do wheither it be scratch building or buying bits and bobs already done each to there own 

Im just glad the Forum is here to share my interest with the rest of the world

Jay

[FullLeatherJacket]

Can't quite seem to find a suitable button.....  you see, I build partly from kit-parts, but before  they've become part of the kit that I'm building. The other  (i.e. non-kit) parts therefore must be scratch-built, but they consequently become kit-parts afterwards. So I guess it's really scratch building.....partly............or is it?

(so go pick the bones out of that  lot.  )

Last three builds were:

Model Slipway "Dutch Courage"
Model Slipway "Kawcab"
Model Slipway "Coaster"

Predictable? Moi??!!

FLJ 

[Ghost in the shell]

a bit like semi-scratch, FLJ?

At the end of the day, those who build scratch do so because they have 1 the time, 2 the skill, 3, the balls to even attempt it (in the case of the seawell),

those who build kits do so probably because they see a particular model on the shelf and think "I like that one" next thing is, its on the workbench, plans pinned up on the wall, instruction book in one of 2 places, 1 -the work bench, 2- the bin!

so to sum it up why do we build what we do? answer because we do and we ENJOY doing it.

one of my favourite models I have for sailing is my Sydney Star, which was the last one I built. 

[Bunkerbarge]

You see Colin, Even Jimmy does not build everything, our good friend Gordon does all the photo etching for him, I build 90% of my models, I buy in some of the very small guns , like quad 40,s and Orlicoms, so you have to put it down as , im not a scratch builder.

If you look at my earlier post Captain A, I referred to the traditional definition of scratchbuilding and then said that the definition is more elastic these days. So, yes - I would consider Jimmy to be a scratchbuilder. At the other extreme, if somebody has bought a kit, made it out of the box and then added a few home built items to give it extra "colour" then I wouldn't consider it scratchbuilt. The line between the two is blurred as somebody else has quite rightly said. But as Rick F says, who cares? I prefer to build most of the model like you but I draw the line at anchor chain and propellors and some fittings that I don't have the tools or skills to make. Sometimes I'll make the stern tubes sometimes not depending on the model.

From the comments we have been seeing it would seem that certain people feel the need to go on the defensive if they haven't built everything themselves and that is total nonsense. There are still competitions around that people enter and if you have a competition you have to have rules and definitions to reflect the amount of work put into the model to enable it to be judged. That's why there are different classes - to be able to fairly compare like with like. In the ME Exhibition Jimmy may have lost a few marks for his photo etchings, I don't know, but when you look at the sheer quality of the model there is no question that it deserved its Gold Medal. I know many modellesr who scratchbuild at the highest level and none of them look down their noses at people who build kits or semi kits. They recognise that everyone has their own preferences, skill levels and amount of time available for modelling. It's just all different aspects of the hobby we all share and enjoy.

I think it is interesting Colin that Martin starts this thread to generate some infornmation but it is a topic that does always seem to generate some underlying strong feelings.  I have to say I agree that sometimes you get a defensive reaction from kit modellers because they have almost certainly at some point in time been on the recieving end of an elitist attitude from a scratchbuilder.  I am certain that 99% of them are quite happy to do thier own thing and share thier skills and experiences openly and selflessly with everyone in the cause of the hobby but you cannot escape from the fact that there are a small number of scratchbuilders who look down on kit makers.  

There will always be the rivet counters in every hobby and we have to simply humour them but I think the most important thing, as has been said now by quite a few, is to simply enjoy the hobby in the way you want to enjoy it.

I'm afraid, and I know you will disagree, that judging models does not work in the best interest of the model boat hobby by the very fact that it uses the categories we are describing here.  I would like to see models judged entirely on individual merit and not forced into a category where you may well not be comparing like for like.  That way each model is judged on a set of criteria based on accuracy, finish, detail, amount of work etc, where obviously a well built scratchbuild will score better than most kits but you would also get not so well put together scratchbuilds scoring worse than heavily modified kits.  At the moment a model entered in the scratchbuilt category is automatically put on a higher plane than any kit, no matter how well modified, and could even, by the fact that there may be little competition in that class, come away with a prize when the far better models in the modified kit range do not do as well because there could be more to choose from in that category.  It happens and I have seen it.  

I think it interesting though that a lot of members at some point in thier modelling career have turned thier hands to both and I think it is probably true that most of us don't put our own work into categories we just do what we enjoy.  I probably spend a lot of my time modifying and improving old and second hand models, which I actually enjoy doing because I can see results a lot sooner than with completing an entire model.  Consequently I have a few Ebay purchases that have been stripped out and refitted with new internals and enhanced in various ways.  

If I didn't do this I would never have had a boat on the water but then of course non of the work that has been put into those models counts for anything when it comes to a competition!

I do think the most important aspect of such mediums as this forum is that everyone remains open minded to everyone elses standards and needs and provides help and support to anyone who requires it.

[Colin H]

Bob & Richard are bang on. If you are happy with what you do then go for it and s-d the rest.

In it for fun and enjoyment and as a friend of mine told me during a similar debate ` If you want to scratch build first grow your tree`. This from a man who tried and failed to build a kit.

One more piont, on a lighter note Positive will that pen ever run dry?

Yours Colin H.

[Ghost in the shell]

Bunkie, having built the Najade kit, and making a PIGS EAR of it, requiring a user on here to fix it for me, I thaught I'd never build another one again, so my neptun was a commissioned build, however I did tackle the Sydney Star, and had the build logged on RC GROUPS, with some pics hosted on a parrallel thread on here, and Im glad i tackled it.  There still issues that when I look back I can sit and say I could have done that better and oh I did that wrong, yet when someone builds scratch, credit to them as I couldnt do that, Im the first to admit I aint got that kind of skill.

What gives me the pleasure however is seeing my model slide down the slipway, hit the water and stay the right way up when she gets wet for the first time.

As for buying second hand models and re-working them, that too has its own challenges, more so than kits in someways as you dont know what the modeller has done to them in the past during their build.

colin as for bunkie's pen drying up, last time I looked at it, it had feathers on the end of it, with blotting paper ready to hand!

[Colin Bishop]

Some good points there Bunkerbarge and I would agree with most of them. However, the fact that we have got the classes we have in the MPBA resulted from practical difficulties in trying to judge between boats of different types on a fair basis. As Scale Secretary back in the 80's I was landed with the job of trying to pull all the differing viewpoints together and draft out the new Scale Rules which were subsequently approved by the membership so maybe it's all my fault! (although they have been modified since). Similar strongly argued discussions revolved around how you could design a course which was fair to large and small boats alike - you can but it takes some skill.

It must be remembered that the scale model boating scene was much more competitive in those days and many of us used to travel up and down the country during the season to attend regattas. A place in the National Final was something to be keenly fought over. Yes, we had the rivet counter types, pothunters we called them, but most people seemed to have a good time all the same.

These days the emphasis has shifted away from competition towards open sailing events which reflects a changed approach to the hobby. The MPBA competition is a shadow of its former self. Also, putting on a decent competitive regatta is much heavier on manpower than that required for an open event and people are less willing to spend their time on the organisational side as opposed to simply running their boats. But I still enjoy steering round a well designed and challenging course which tests my shiphandling as opposed to just running my boats aimlessly up and down the lake which I soon find rather boring but others seem to be very happy to do.

I do take your point about annoyance being caused by a duff boat getting an award in a low entry class when there is a glut of talent in another class in the same event but that is a function of first past the post judging. The traditional answer has been to build something better yourself and raise the overall standard. There are other methods of judging though which can be more appropriate if the intention is simply to recognise merit rather than just pick a first, second and third and that is the way we judge in the Model Engineer Exhibition. Yes, there are classes if only to recognise the different types of model. After all, no kit, however well assembled and finished, is going to stand much of a chance if placed in the same class as Alex McFadyen or Jimmy Woods simply because of the vast differential in the amount of research, work and knowledge entailed. But within each class judging is to absolute standards. If three Gold Medals are merited then three get awarded. If none of the models merits a medal then none are awarded.

At the end of the day, post(!) nobody is obliged to enter a competition and if you do you can pick the ones where the judging system is in line with your preferences. Some people like to compete, some don't and I would prefer to have a choice of events rather than not.

[meridian]

My first model, completed in July this year, was a kit, the Model Slipway "Range Safety Craft" that I adapted as an MOD Police Launch. My second model, which is currently being built, is an HDML purchased from Power Boat Mouldings as a semi-kit, and involves quite a bit of scratch-building. In between I comprehensively modified a "Dickie" tug which is just about finished. I'm not sure what the next one will be but I certainly like the look of KMB's "Antipodean".  As a matter of interest, the "Antipodean" was built in Perth, just south of Freemantle, together with its sister-ship "Never Say Never". They were built at a shipbuilder called 'Oceanfast'. My son in law thought of becoming a naval architect at one point and did his work experience with the company that designed the Oceanfast yachts, including Antipodean.

From my very limited experience I would say that I simply enjoy building model boats, it's just that different skills are used when you scratch-build. The satisfaction for me comes from the final result!

[tubby tomo]

my last 2 builds tid tug grp hull and a tosher tug grp hull

[GG]

"So long as a man rides his hobby-horse peaceably and quietly along the king's highway, and neither compels you or me to get up behind him - pray, Sir, what have either you or I to do with it?"
Laurence Sterne: Tristram Shandy

My sentiments this subject.

Glynn Guest

[Swordfish]

I enjoy the satisfaction of scratchbuilding and the flexibility it provides for choice of subject and scale. The ever higher cost of kits provides further inspiration for scratchbuilding  Generally I prefer building larger scale ( 1"=1' ) models of relatively smaller craft ( 40 ft. or under ) . I've been looking for a towboat to build in that scale and have just completed one using a Springer hull. The idea was to have a small, easily transported model, but somehow it required an 18" x 32" barge to go with it :) Just like the ladies don't like to show up at an event wearing the same dress as one or two other women, it's nice to run a model on the pond without running into several clones.

[Tug-Kenny RIP]

FLJ has hit the nail on the head.

Shouldn't the term really be    "Scratch Designer". 

After all the wood from a plank on frame model was built by nature.   :angel:


Cheers...Ken

[Microyacht]

Design my own, then scratch build. Mark out and cut every piece of wood!

[PSSHIPS]

My two penneth, I have built and still build from scratch latterly in order to further our range of fittings and hulls etc, but, this is one of my models built on commission for a client in the picture below. This is based on our semi kit of HMS Campbeltown and I defy anyone who says that there is NO scratch building involved here!

 I enjoyed the hobby for over 20 years just as a builder of all mediums, plastic, wood, anything possible even card and made them sail BTW, alot of these were scratch built. In the end I got to the point when I found I could make them cheaper faster and better by using commercialy available products from all suppliers, either in kit form, just a hull, or hull, plan and fitings etc. I enjoy making something that is not what it is supposed to be by making something bespoke, but, based on something already available and if not scratch build it.

 It came to a point when my main supplier wanted to retire and offered me first refusal on his busines to buy it. If I hadn't, I would not have my main source of supply and now my livelyhood. It is very hard work trying to please everyone, let alone have people snipe at you for no reason.

 The main point of my post is.

 It is upto the individual what he wants to make or do if it makes him happy and satisfied with what he/ she has made and even kit builders can say, "I made that"  Just because it comes in a box of parts that in some cases are not up to the mark and get binned, in my view, does not give anyone the right to say anything about what other people do and the people that do what they do. Neither is it up to anyone to say in open forum not to use a certain company for any reason. To me it is up to people to find what they like, ask advice before buying say a kit or whatever and then just get on with it.

 This is a hobby to be enjoyed in what ever way possible and not to have a slanging match or anything else with anyone or any thing. Things like unprovoked attacks on individuals or companies in this hobby is not required in the hobby and the offending person/ artical should be dealt with through the propper channels and not in open forum like this.

 It is up to the individual, not the biased views of others. If you are happy doing what you do ignor these types of people, like I have learned to do, to my cost on several occasions. I speak as modeller and not a busines in this thread. I am no longer a modeller in some people's eyes, but, I AM! FIRST AND FOREMOST.

 Paul. PSSHIPS/SIRMAR LTD.

[Ghost in the shell]

well that seems to have hit the nail on the head.  :)

hopefully that will kick the ladders from under the elitest crowd.

SPLAT!

[Colin Bishop]

Just as a matter of interest Ghost - which members do you consider to be the "elitest  crowd"? You need to be a bit careful what you are saying here I think. A lot of what Paul said is simply repeating what the rest of us have said on this thread - i.e. whatever floats your boat.

[tigertiger]

I am stalling embarking on my first scratch builds from MM plans. I may need to buy a lot of tools. The possibility is that in future I will go back to kits. As was said above, with a kit I get everything I need.

TT
All at sea in China.

Just a query: as many if not most of the tools we buy here in the U.K. are made in China, are they available in China? Or is everything exported?

Hi Bryan

There are many regualar tools here, for example I can buy a small pillar drill for around 30 quid. But mostly the tools here are of the big industrial variety. There is not DIY market.

I cannot find the smaller 'hobby tools', as there is a limited hobby market. People here, if they have the money they won't have the time. I have been unable to locate a mini table saw.

I can locate some to the factories that manufacturere milling machines etc. But they are either OCM (contract manufactureres who cannot sell to local market) or only deal with trade (in large quantities).

The other side of the coin is this. Do I really want to equip a full workshop if I am only building one or two models a year? The set up cost is high. I could have bought another few kits for that.

Last thought. A kit is easier to fly under SWMBO's radar, or explain, than a lathe.

[tigertiger]

... Neither is it up to anyone to say in open forum not to use a certain company for any reason...

Hi Paul

The only thing I have to disagree with you on is the sentence above.

I agree with you in principle that we shouldn't just 'rubbish a trader'. But there are exceptions. We had an example on another thread of a company (rogue trader) that has taken poeples money and not supplied goods.
They appear to have CCJs against them, and they have been added to a traders blacklist on another site.

There is also another 'vendor', from Wearside I think, who is copying other peoples hulls and selling them on Ebay. I think it is right that people are warned about him.

If there is a genuine reason for a warning, that can be substantiated, then a warning is always welcome.

[Roger in France]

I do not think anyone need keep silent about poor service or unsatisfactory trading, provided you tell the whole story in a fair, responsible manner and emphasise it is the experience that you had.

Exaggerating, irrationally condemning and implying that a trader is no good based on one experience helps nobody.

It is natural to want to build up your own side of the story but in fact it does not help.

Some of you know I was formerly a Trading Standards Officer and I can tell you that many, many complainants exaggerated, generalised and told downright lies. When they did I always went back to the trader and told them suggesting they may not want to do business with that customer anymore. But if the untruth is published it can be very damaging, as Paul says.

First complain to the trader and, if appropriate and only after reflection accurately share your experience. Never complain or publish your grouse in the heat of the moment. Also, be as quick to praise as you are to complain.

Roger in France.

[aestus57]

 Hello All,

Many years ago when I started in model boats, I built a Waveney Class Lifeboat from a kit, but unfortunately to say I didn't get much of a kick out of building it, somehow it just didn't fire the imagination. I then scratch built a Daring class destroyer HMS Diamond from Map Plans.

After that I did a scratch built TID tug, the "Richard Able" and in between renovated a 6ft Bismark which I bought as someone else's project which got too much for them. At that time the Crosby Model Club was heavily into putting on mock sea battles, with one of the guys obtaining an explosives licence, for setting off detonators as "depth charges"!!

Latest scratch build is the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company Survey Tender "Aestus" She is now on the water with only some of the fine detail work to be completed. Built from makers drawings and kindly supplied by MDHC in the 1980's

Have just obtained the plans for my next scratch build, the Salvage, Survey & Bouyage vessel TSS Vigilant, again another MDHC ship.
Much prefer scratch building as you can then model unique vessels that you have an interest in.

I do admit to using some bought in fittings, as my main enjoyment seems to come from doing the major jobs like Hull and Superstructure.

Peter

[John C]

Current project is a restoration/finishing off at last, of a scratch built whale catcher that I started in excess of 25 years ago and no longer have the plans for (due to a gap in model boating of about the same number of years).
Previous build was a semi scale mine sweeper to my own freelance design (I drew out the outline on a piece of ply and it grew from there) while I waited for SWMBO to make the sails for my Y2K from Waverly models which I suppose classes as a semi kit (fibreglass hull and plans).
I generally like to do my own thing, I get an idea and things grow from there. Since I regained an interest in the hobby through a friend who has since passed away and I inherited all his stuff, I just felt the need to put it to good use. But unlike him I never have been a kit basher (didn't have the funds).
Recently I've got interested in the scale sail malarky, and I confess I don't know one end of a boat/ship from another even though I was in the sea cadets and did a bit of sailing up until I hit 30, I just like mucking about with model boats and not so much the real un's.
I always got more out of the build with my previous powered models, because once it was built, I took it to a lake, if it all worked I lost interest. With the sail model (Y2k is the first working sail I've built, but I have built static models) it's a bit of a learning curve once you get them on the water to get them to sail ( and it's a nice change to get people that are interested in sailboats and the history of them come and talk to you or sit and watch fascinated rather than "how fast does it go mister") it's surprising how you get bitten.
I'm not the best of model builders (nowhere near, but I've got broad shoulders) and like to think I can manage something that looks a bit like the intended outcome even if the scale might be a bit off now and then. But I think I have re-discovered what originally drew me to making models in the first place, it was the learning how to do something new. Thanks to the internet (and Martin), places such as this forum, and the majority of people on it, make it a lot easier to gain new skills as well as some of the basic ones if you're beginner.

John C

[Colin H]

With regards to advising of poor traders I think we should bear a couple of things in mind.

(a) There are always three side to every argument your side, his side and some where in the middle the truth.

(b) the only person who never made a mistake only managed that because they never tried to do anything.

(c) Its not the mistake that is the problem its the way it is dealt with. I work as a heating & gas engineer and I make mistakes. I have found over the years that if I hold my hands up, say sorry and correct the blooper, I not only keep my clients but keep busy by reccommendations.

Yours Colin H.

[chingdevil]

MODERATED

OK as this thread has moved from Kit or Scratch Build to accusations and name calling.


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