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[Colin Bishop]

Just been watching the WW1 commemorations at the Albert Hall on TV and find myself feeling a bit uneasy about them. It all seems a bit showbizzy and 'going through the motions' for today's generation. Obviously it is something that we should never forget and educating today's youngsters is very important but I feel that the whole thing has beome a bit sanitised.

Over the years my Wife and I have visited many of the WW1 and WW2 battlefields and their associated cemeteries. Very often it has been as a by product of being on holiday in the area. On all occasions it has been sobering and saddening experience whether at the great memorial at Thiepval or as the smaller cemeteries such as Souda Bay in Crete. The most poignant places are the smaller cemeteries in France and  elsewhere where you can read the individual grave marker inscriptions and read the dedications in the cemetary visitor books which often bring a tear to the eye with their personal references. I just wonder to what extent the 'great and the good' who attend these national and international ceremonies actually connect at this sort of level.

A couple of years back we were visiting the Belgian Ardennes and came across a cemetery with a real variety of graves of WW2 allied military personnnel. It was evident that these poor souls had drawn the short straw in being killed right at the end of a war that they should have survived.

Some years ago I visited Verdun with friends and the appearance of the landscape today is still shocking after all the years the conflict took place. The violence is almost unimaginable.

So while it is right to commemorate these things I do rather doubt if today's generation really appreciate just what actually happened. It does bug me a bit.

Colin

[Footski]

Colin,
I share your sentiments. The cemeteries along the Normandy coast are impressive in themselves, but like you I wonder if people below a certain age, really take in what it was all about. Are we destined to carry on making the same mistakes over and over again?
I find the debate over the simple poppy to be most distasteful and yet the media keep pushing the debate. What debate? I ask. It is a simple thing to remember the fallen of all wars and conflicts and should always be a personal choice.

[Colin Bishop]

Quite right Footski. We have visited all the places along the Normandy coast which are actually within easy reach of where we live in the UK. There really is nothing like seeing these places for yourself and we feel that quiet reflection is the appropriate response. I am grateful that my generation never had to endure what my Father's did and we owe them so much for our conflict free lives.


I don't mind these commemoration ceremonies as such, I just wonder how many of the participants you see on TV have anything other than the slightest understanding of the historical context.


Colin

[Neil]

I just wonder how many of the participants you see on TV have anything other than the slightest understanding of the historical context.

I have to ask...…….do any of us really have any idea other than what we have seen and heard from our fore fathers what it was really like, and therefore just as we have learned from them, it is our duty to pass on to our children what we have been told and learned.


as for the service tonight, some of you "oldies" might not realise just how much impact on the younger people this "show" might have had on the younger fraternity...….the duet by the two young men towards the beginning of the remembrance service was by Tom Fletcher and Danny Jones of the group McFly.....my daughter and her friends were at a Uni party for one of their friends birthdays...…….she rang me after the service had finished to say that they had stopped the party in Halls to watch it knowing that Tom and Danny were singing, and found the whole service so uplifting that they continued to watch before restarting their revelries at 22.15.


I think that we do our younger generation much dis-service by thinking they don't realise the significance of what happened 100 years ago...…...my elder daughter sat with me tonight watching with tears in their eyes.


it doesn't matter how one remembers

those inhuman times,

whether  it be quiet reflection in a small graveyard, standing at a cenotaph tomorrow, or watching a well choreographed and precision display such as the Festival of Remembrance, it is THAT WE DO REMEMBER, that is the important part of remembering our brave "relatives", and I think the kids of today are much more savvy about what their fore fathers in instances of lunacy have done in the past history, than some older people give them credit for.

[BrianB6]

We have just returned from our local village Remembrance Service and the senior class at the Primary School came forward and each represented and recited the name of one of the village fallen. 

They do remember them.

[roycv]

Hi Colin, I sensed that the programme might be what it was and avoided it.  I also avoided going to Warwick on the Sunday for my own reasons.
I shall watch the Cenotaph coverage on TV today.  My father fought in this war and rarely spoke of it except for one afternoon when I was in my late teens and I had a library book out on the mining activities during the conflict.  He did not wish to re-live any of it and never spoke ever again on the subject. 

He was in the Royal Artillery and was a career soldier ending as a sergeant major, I calculate he joined up in 1912, then later was dragged into WW2 for training purposes.  He lost a brother in WW1 who I never knew so it was all very personal for him.  But he had two other younger brothers who also got to be sereant majors but later served as Officers in WW2, a Colonel and a Major.
He passed away 45 years ago aged 81.
I do believe the government never treated the soldiers rightly back then and perhaps even now.  A trivial item that used to annoy him was that in later life he had an Army pension, but he was only allowed to earn a certain amount in employment before amounts would be deducted from his pension.

But it was calculated on a £ for £ basis before he paid tax.  So when he worked overtime as he had to at Christmas he was actually losing money.  He paid 12.5 p in the pound tax so every hour overtime he worked cost him 'half a crown'.  He complained but it was to no avail.
My brother and I have good memories of him so I shall watch the remembrance service and remember him and the other survivors.

regards Roy

[gingyer]

Colin
I wholeheartedly agree the service of remembrance started changing a number
Of years ago into some showbiz gala and feel it had Simon cowell in charge.


I have always felt after the kids sit their base exams before proceeding to higher level exams in secondary schools they should have a complulsary trip to these cemeteries and one of the concentration camps. That way they see the sacrifice and the evils of what people were capable of and then they may understand a bit better

[roycv]

Hi Gingyer, a good point, I visited Dachau in 1993, it is worth going and disturbing in its enormity.
Regards
 Roy

[LJ Crew]

Like many of our generation I watched last evening's broadcast from the Royal Albert Hall. The mix of modern artists and traditional performances by the Armed Services and Pensioners was moving. My Father was shot down, and survived, whilst flying a bomber over Northern France in 1918,but his bomb aimer did not survive. The large War Cemeteries are impressive, but more moving still, at least to me, was the simple memorial I came across beside a canal in Yorkshire. Just a post with a plaque on it, and some poppies on it, remembering the pilot of an aircraft which just failed to make it back to his airfield in 1942.

[Colin Bishop]

I certainly agree with the comments about educating children.

It should also be drummed into them that wars are started by old men, often with personal agendas, who force young men to fight for them.

There are few just wars. Hitler was evil but Japan entered the war for economic reasons which is the most frequent underlying reason for starting a conflict.


Unfortunately wars are part of the human condition, they have been fought all through recorded history, are being fought now and will be in the future.

There are plenty of people around the world in positions of power who consider that warfare is a perfectly acceptable method of attaining their aims if they think they can win.

Colin

[Neil]

Unfortunately wars are part of the human condition, they have been fought all through recorded history, are being fought now and will be in the future.

There are plenty of people around the world in positions of power who consider that warfare is a perfectly acceptable method of attaining their aims if they think they can win.

Colin

if you ask the youth of today...……..they have a completely different adgenda for solving world strife...……...I know my two do, and their friends and their friends and so on also do.....and like you say Colin......its the older generations who can only believe force is the way.


children are educated in todays modern society, not about how wars begin, and fought , so much as how wars could have been and how they can be avoided in the future, in the ways that history is taught in today's curriculum...….having young kids, and not too far removed from teaching myself I appreciate their attitudes towards our recent past, and can only hope that as our future generations of kids grow, wars will become less and less.


as I said in my earlier post...…..our youngsters are a lot more savvy than a lot of older people give them credit for.

[Colin Bishop]

Just slightly off subject, I thought Jeremy Corbyn was very inappropiately dressed at the Centotaph ceremony just now. An anorak with a hood and a red tie. Not impressed.
Colin

[dreadnought72]

At least - unlike Trump and Belleau Wood - he turned up.

[roycv]

Hi Colin I made just such a remark to my wife and not sure he knew the words to the National Anthem either.
Not sure I can agree with Neil though!  Some do not seem to have heard of those ideas.
regards
 Roy

[TheLongBuild]

Just slightly off subject, I thought Jeremy Corbyn was very inappropiately dressed at the Centotaph ceremony just now. An anorak with a hood and a red tie. Not impressed.
Colin

Fully agree I said similar although a lot better than M.Foot on his first time there.

[Neil]

At least - unlike Trump and Belleau Wood - he turned up.

AND HE WORE A POPPY, unlike trump...……


and that comment, Colin classes as a political snipe against the opposition leader, I reckon  which is taboo on here.


I an sure from your place of abode, you will be voting for him at the next general election, seeing as he is going to ban fracking at his election into power, 

[Neil]

                                           
Not sure I can agree with Neil though!  Some do not seem to have heard of those ideas.
regards
 Roy

there are always exceptions in any age range Roy...…….but if you feel that of the majority of youth these days, you are sadly out of touch!!!

[furball]

I spent yesterday on the Somme with my wife, son and his fiancée (who are both in their early 20’s, and know a much more about it than I do, especially his young lady who lives there). Went to both Thiepval and Vimy Ridge, where my great uncle has his name inscribed. Most sobering was the new memorial at Notre Dame de Lorette, which has the name of every soldier who died in France in WW1.


There are just under 580,000 of them, all arranged alphabetically, with no nationalities or ranks.


Lance

[derekwarner]

The 11th of the 11th is a hugely respected & cherished day in Australia....yesterday we had a Preschool early Christmas  partly at our live Steamers


The 5" trains were per planned to all be stopped at the station, at 11:00 AM, the Preschool Director [35YO] via the PA system asked all to stand and face the West for a minutes silence ......then read the Ode


So the gathering was approx 35 pairs of parents [25 to 35YO] + 100 youngsters from 3 to 5 years old....[and 10+ of our older volunteers]


Not a sound was heard during that minute apart from a baby cry..............


Australia wide, the number of and involvement of younger people an ANZAC and 11/11 Ceremonies is increasing year by year....


Derek


 

[Neil]

An anorak with a hood and a red tie.

and besides, Colin, it wasn't an anorak, as the press stated....it was actually a 3/4 length raincoat, and seeing as it was raining all morning until the 2 minute silence started when the sun actually made an appearance, it had been raining quite hard...……..so suitable rain attire for a rainy day, really.


I thought you would take press coverage with the pinch of salt it deserves,

[raflaunches]

As a serving member of the RAF I would like to point out that whilst it may come as a shock to some we are not warmongers and hope that it is truly the last resort to send people like me in to resolve the situation. I’ve been into places where I was scared and seen some of the results of conflict- it’s horrible and hope it’s something I never see again but I’d rather work for someone who will take the tough decision to deploy their military assets to prevent these atrocities occurring than to one who will only talk about it.
Children should be taught both sides of the story and the dangers of going to war and oppositely the dangers of not going to war. The best example are the World Wars- WW1 should not have been fought if proper discussions happened but WW2 had to be fought to prevent a true evil from taking power of the entire European continent.
If politicians don’t remember history we are doomed to repetition.

[Neil]

As a serving member of the RAF I would like to point out that whilst it may come as a shock to some we are not warmongers and hope that it is truly the last resort to send people like me in to resolve the situation. I’ve been into places where I was scared and seen some of the results of conflict- it’s horrible and hope it’s something I never see again but I’d rather work for someone who will take the tough decision to deploy their military assets to prevent these atrocities occurring than to one who will only talk about it.
Children should be taught both sides of the story and the dangers of going to war and oppositely the dangers of not going to war. The best example are the World Wars- WW1 should not have been fought if proper discussions happened but WW2 had to be fought to prevent a true evil from taking power of the entire European continent.
If politicians don’t remember history we are doomed to repetition.

very well put Nick.

[Peter Fitness]

I have to ask...…….do any of us really have any idea other than what we have seen and heard from our fore fathers what it was really like, and therefore just as we have learned from them, it is our duty to pass on to our children what we have been told and learned.

 whether  it be quiet reflection in a small graveyard, standing at a cenotaph tomorrow, or watching a well choreographed and precision display such as the Festival of Remembrance, it is THAT WE DO REMEMBER, that is the important part of remembering our brave "relatives", and I think the kids of today are much more savvy about what their fore fathers in instances of lunacy have done in the past history, than some older people give them credit for.

Very well said Neil, and I totally agree. It's very heartening to see the number of young people at commemoration ceremonies all around the country on occasions such as we saw on November 11. As Derek Warner said, the number of young people attending such ceremonies is increasing yearly. I was born in January 1937, nearly 3 years before the outbreak of WW2, and can remember quite clearly the latter years of that war. While I never experienced first hand the horrors of that conflict, I was old enough to grasp some of the details and, of course, as I grew older I learned the full extent of those horrors. Despite what some of the anti-war people would have us believe, we do not celebrate war, but we do honour and commemorate those who fought and died in war. It seems that while some ceremonies do not conform to what we have traditionally experienced, I believe that, if they achieve that objective, they are very worthwhile and should be supported.


Lest we forget.


Peter.

[Colin Bishop]

Nick, I agree with you 100%. We should not seek war but we must be prepared to defend ourselves and those who are oppressed. The current run down of our military is a huge mistake. It simply loses us respect and makes us vulnerable or unable to respond when needs dictate. Some situations are messy such as Syria where issues are not clear cut in which case the international community has a duty to try and stop the fighting. A duty which it often shirks.
I respect what you and your colleagues do and I'm sure that is a view supported by most of us on here.
Colin

[Colin Bishop]

Don't be silly Neil, I didn't see any press coverage before posting. Check the time of my post. My Wife drew attention to Corbyn who stood out like a sore thumb amongst all those attending the ceremony and said he was a disgrace. He was either very stupid or making a political point, almost certainly the latter and appeared to be wearing the same outfit yesterday while eating fish and chips in Saltburn.

I accept he may have his own personal views but as Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition he has a position to uphold which sometimes requires him to meet the requirements of that position irrespective of his personal opinions. I think he was being disrespectful and out of order in the circumstances and the subsequent comments about his behaviour overwhelmingly reflect this.

There is a time and a place for everything and this wasn't it. A big contrast to the President of the German Republic who did give every appearance of being sincere in offering his respects which I think people will have very much appreciated.


Colin