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Author Topic: Right sound for a large bulk carrier  (Read 4513 times)

Tug Captain

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Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« on: November 11, 2018, 05:52:29 pm »

Hi,


want to include an engine sound in my present building project, a 1:100 scale geared bulk carrier.  the problem is that none of the sound modules I have checked can provide a realistic sound for a large vessel diesel.  Tugs, steam driven vessels etc . no problem - but where can I find a sound module that will provide a large diesel sound. I know there are alternatives where you can sample sounds but it is not quite easy to sample a large vessel under full power.


Suggestions??
Regards
Claes
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derekwarner

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 02:30:57 am »

Claes ............you have quite a choice in original sound characteristics


1. modern diesels for bulk tankers could be from 4 or up to 9 cylinders and ranging from ~~8,000kW to ~~35,000kW
2. usually 2 stroke
3. say 130 RPM max


So this gives you a huge set of variables of what you hear by the way of exhaust pulsations via the vessels chimney


The actual engine room noise can be at at say 130 dB, however this is a real mix of auxiliary equipment [medium speed diesel generator sets/fuel systems/centrifuges/refrigeration systems......all screaming the heads off and masking the deep thump & pulsation sound of the main engine


In the Port of Kembla [ my home Port], every vessel entering or departing is via a 200m wide deep water channel...so the vessel engine noise is relatively clear ......100,000  tonne ore carriers with 4 tugs, or 50,000 tonne Box Boats with 2 tugs


I could only suggest if you have the opportunity, to listen 1st hand at the sound of such vessels....as I think you will be surprised how little the main engine sound is emitted


Derek


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Derek Warner

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malcolmfrary

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 09:14:17 am »

Like Derek says, if you are inside the engine room, it will be painfully noisy from all manner of sources. 
Outside, when you scale the distance, you won't hear it.  You might feel something, but it will be right at the bottom end of the frequency range of normal human hearing.
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Steam Boat Willie

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 11:17:09 am »

Having worked on such ships as an engineer and been at sea all my life I can state that such vessels do not produce any discernible noise from the outside apart from a whistle and a foghorn.  You might hear a very faint hiss of compressed air as the engine starts up on manoeuvring but that is about it.
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Tug Captain

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 06:12:29 pm »

yeah, that's what I mean - all sound modules I have been checking are far too "noisy" - I want a low frequency sound " curtain" but nothing I have tested sofar match that description. I guess no sound at all is a more realistic alternative than for example a high rev tug diesel.


The challenge is, I guess, is to sample a big diesel at full power - they very rarely are at full effect when approaching/leaving port so out of reach so to say...
Claes
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2018, 06:46:16 pm »


My thoughts which I am sure many will not agree with!


Some large ships do produce noise. For some it is just a heavy rumble but for others there is also a pulsing - around 100hz. I suspect that a lot of it is more to with fans etc than the main engines. I agree that no commercial model sound system gets near it and that most are very over loud when you are near the model. The real difficulty it that the noise produced by large ships is "large" & very low frequency which is exactly what small speakers in small enclosures cannot produce. This low frequency noise carries over long distances (as evidenced by the music from pubs, parties etc) but the noise from tiny model speakers gets lost very quickly into the background as distance increases. I also note that the noise of big ships is pretty constant whatever the ship is doing so a basic MP3 player with a suitable sound will work nearly as well as a full sound system. 


Search YouTube for a noise you like when played through your sound system. Railway engines, very large diesel engines etc save it as an MP3 file and loop it to create a file as long as you need.

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Hotglove

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 07:04:28 pm »

perhaps you can find a friendly sound engineer, someone who records music for others as a hobby maybe, then try applying sound effects to a sample using a keyboard to vary pitch and rhythm, making a "ship tune" that is pleasing to your ear.
We try to create a reasonable visual presentation of thousands of tons of steel using plastic, wood and bits of metal, they are nothing like a real ship, but pleasing to the eye.
a matter of "suspension of disbelief" perhaps?
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Tug Captain

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2018, 07:29:59 pm »

Tug Fanatic,


agree totally with your analysis.    There's only one little problem - I have to learn how to save a sound file and  make a loop.  I have an old iPod laying around somewhere in the workshop - is that maybe one way to go???
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2018, 07:54:19 pm »

To be honest I have always wondered why people want engine sounds when in reality, as said earlier, they are barely perceptible in real life to external observers as any vibrations tend to be absorbed by the surrounding sea. You need to be on board and in the engine room to actually hear the noise. I have been close to big ships in a yacht and you actually don't hear anything at all. Likewise on a ferry, you may be aware of some vibration when the engines start up and indeed when lying in your bunk while under way but it is a vibration and certainly not a noise.

Its nothing like listening to heavy lorries driving past on the road.
Colin
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 07:20:20 am »

To be honest I have always wondered why people want engine sounds when in reality, as said earlier, they are barely perceptible in real life to external observers as any vibrations tend to be absorbed by the surrounding sea. You need to be on board and in the engine room to actually hear the noise. I have been close to big ships in a yacht and you actually don't hear anything at all. Likewise on a ferry, you may be aware of some vibration when the engines start up and indeed when lying in your bunk while under way but it is a vibration and certainly not a noise.

Its nothing like listening to heavy lorries driving past on the road.
Colin



Actually you don't. I have spent many hours at Felixstowe point and other dock areas & the sounds are definitely there. It depends on background noise. At 6am on a still summers morning they seem quiet loud but as the noise builds up by 10am you can barely hear them. On a misty night in the middle of a shipping lane on a small boat they seem much louder even across several miles (& not a little worrying).


Instructions on saving sounds & looping to follow.



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Tug Fanatic

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2018, 08:36:12 am »

 To get an MP3 file which we can then edit & loop you need a bit of shareware (free for domestic use) that will let you download & save Youtube videos. I use “4k Video Downloader”
You find the video that you want to use the soundtrack from and right click on the link. That brings up the menu in Image 1. Left click on “Copy Link”
Open “4k Video Downloader” and press “Paste Link” This will bring up the screen in Image 2. Notice the box that is showing “Extract Audio” (near top left). The default is to record Video so you will need to select this option. Format is MP3. Press “Extract” & you will soon have a nice sound file which I find in “Pictures – 4k Video Downloader. This will work for all YouTube videos  ;)   ;)
Now you probably only want part of the video soundtrack & you will want it to play for longer than it does on the video so we need to edit the sound file. 
The audio editor that I use is again shareware called “Audacity”. It is a fully featured Audio Editor which goes way beyond what you need here. A nice simple editor will do here as all you want to do is cut a segment & then repeat it. You might need to try this several times to get a join that works well & obviously the longer the segment that you have selected the better. I suggest DVDVideoSoft Free Audio Editor which you can read about & use the download link here:
https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews/dvdvideosoft-free-audio-editor

 
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Tug Captain

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2018, 05:03:34 pm »

Tug Fanatic,
appreciate yr input - most helpful. Thank you.
Claes
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Hotglove

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2018, 07:47:43 pm »

The ESS series of sound modules have a supporting software app called RC Plus which has a (very) few boat sounds, perhaps their "biggest" boat sound might suit. This is labelled as 2000 bhp, the ships horn sounds, however are, to my ears very good, their ESS ONE plus module has two channels plus auxiliary sounds to allow engine and horns to play on the same unit.
Unfortunately there are three drawbacks, the first is that RC Plus is Windows only (annoying when you have only Mac equipment) the second is that RC Plus, although a free download from Sense Innovations, is not straightforward to download as a few of the steps have only Chinese characters, the third is that it is necessary to connect an ESS sound module to the PC in order to listen to sound samples.
Having said that the ESS units are simple to use, so, if you know someone who will demonstrate them and their samples, they are worth a look.
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Steam Boat Willie

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2018, 09:08:22 pm »

A bulk carrier will almost certainly have a slow speed diesel engine for main propulsion.  The slow speed diesel will not make any discernible noise outside of the vessel, that is I'm afraid a fact. 


What you might notice, for those who are convinced they can hear something, are medium speed engines.  You will find these on ferries, tugs and diesel electric propulsion systems as main propulsion engines and possibly on bulk carriers as generating sets.  You may hear a very faint rumble from these on a still quiet night but certainly not enough to merit reproducing in a model.  If you do try to reproduce any form of machinery noise from a bulk carrier it will potentially sound disproportionate and very unrealistic.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 01:59:36 pm »

Just out of idle interest, and because it seemed a good idea at the time, I had a go with Audacity at simming a sound track. 
Create the file.  Using the "generate" button, I generated 30 seconds of 100Hz, then below it 30 secinds of 10Hz.  Cut and pasted the 10 into the 100 and exported the result into an .mp3 file.  (Never try to save anything with Audacity, always "export" it to have a useful file.)
Result.  Playing this back through the laptop speakers did nothing noticable.  Much the same with extension speakers.  Via a "proper" amplifier that can deliver good power, and with decent speakers that can handle it, a satisfying pulsing rumble, but only with the wick turned up beyond what I consider "normal for music". 
Conclusion.  As predicted by the laws of physics, it needs a hefty speaker to do the job, which needs an amplifier capable of driving it.  Importantly, this speaker needs the right enclosure.  Mine has about 4 feet of convoluted, tapered, damped tunnel between the back of the speaker and the outside port, which might not be easy to arrange on a model ship, even a 1:1"realistic" level, more tan a few feet away, I wouldn't notice it.
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Tug Captain

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 03:58:47 pm »

I spend times during the summer on the Swedish west coat just north of Gothenburg. Every so often Wallenius -Wihlmsesen car carriers pass some 500 metrs out and there is a definite "humming" in the air when they are abeam. These are real big ships  But evidently the true sound is very difficult to reproduce in a scale like manner - I have to accept that.


But what abt horns/fog horns?  I do want the deep, reverbating sound from a large ship, not the "merry go round" sounds or steam whistles I have checked on the net. Maybe I can find what I want on you tube and then proceed as explained by Tug Fanatic. I know abt the german Beier Electronics very capable sound module but that has a real hefty price tag and I just want the horn now. So the search goes on...
Claes
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2018, 04:41:15 pm »


I agree Tug Captain. Despite what Steam Boat Willy says you can 100% definitely hear the machinery of large ships - 300m+ container ships & large bulk carriers - if it is quiet. I am not saying that it is the main engines that you can hear but it is there and carries as a very low frequency heavy rumble.





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Hotglove

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2018, 05:23:38 pm »

model boats are fantasy, theatre, fun, the small people who inhabit them are made from plastic and putty, not flesh and blood.
So a model Titanic with convincing foghorn, a mechanical throb, snatches of orchestral music, an Irish jig from the Steerage, etc. all part of the illusion, all part of the fun.
If sounds are what floats yer boat, play on. :-)
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2018, 06:38:54 pm »

Wouldn't it sound not much different than this?

https://youtu.be/BhsAGSoGZS0?t=181

Working pilots, I really don't recall a lot of engine noise.We based our approach on anchoring up, propeller wash, and people at the gang plank.

 O0

Steam Boat Willie

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2018, 07:21:27 pm »

I agree Tug Captain. Despite what Steam Boat Willy says you can 100% definitely hear the machinery of large ships - 300m+ container ships & large bulk carriers - if it is quiet. I am not saying that it is the main engines that you can hear but it is there and carries as a very low frequency heavy rumble.


I don't quite understand why you say "despite" then go on to repeat what I said. 
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chas

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 10:56:02 pm »

An important point is almost missing in this thread. Realism is irrelevent. We make models and sail them ( mostly) in unrealistic ways.  Between orange bottles in steering courses, all over the place for fun. Dodge other models, and heel them over in tight turns.
       If a sound effect gives pleasure to the builder, go for it. Model building and sailing is nearer to art than science, whatever gives the effect you want is fine.
  If I wanted to do this, I'd pick a sound file I liked and use it, and not worry about whether anyone thought it wasn't technically correct.
   Have fun, nothing else matters.
  Hope I haven't upset anyone with that.
Chas


   
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 10:57:41 pm »

Fair comment Chas.


Colin
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NickelBelter

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 01:58:50 am »

I recall standing on the shore at Morrisburg, Ontario as one of McAsphalt's big ATBs was heading upbound on the river and being amazed as to how clearly i could hear the knocking of the diesels all the way out there!  Must've been a headache for the crew. 

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Tug Captain

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2018, 08:37:14 am »

My models are floating on water - not sound...




As time goes by radio controlled models have been developed to include functions I could not imagine when I buildt my first model some 60 years back. Rudder control was by means of a pulse making the model snaking thru the water, motor control was full ahed, stop, full astern etc etc. But it was fun.


Todays rc-systems make it possible to control an almost unlimted number of functions, some proportional like rudder, engine, bow thrusters etc, some on/off functions for various lights, anchors, sound etc.


My present project will in addition to all the above functions include cargo hatches open/close (at true speed), crane booms up down, hook uup/ down.  crane turning etc. I am fully aware of that all this is just for my own fun - the model will never sail to a port for loading and onto another for discharging. But I like the challenge to make my models as true as possible in scale. My models are not of museum standard but well buildt sailing models. If i can include a fog horn which sounds ok  - why not???
Claes
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Martin (Admin)

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Re: Right sound for a large bulk carrier
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2018, 08:44:56 am »

An important point is almost missing in this thread. Realism is irrelevent. We make models and sail them ( mostly) in unrealistic ways.  Between orange bottles in steering courses, all over the place for fun. Dodge other models, and heel them over in tight turns.
       If a sound effect gives pleasure to the builder, go for it. Model building and sailing is nearer to art than science, whatever gives the effect you want is fine.
  If I wanted to do this, I'd pick a sound file I liked and use it, and not worry about whether anyone thought it wasn't technically correct.
   Have fun, nothing else matters.
  Hope I haven't upset anyone with that.
Chas

Well put Chas!   :-))
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