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Author Topic: ENGEL GATO  (Read 1241 times)

webbo

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ENGEL GATO
« on: November 15, 2018, 09:21:49 AM »

Hi , need help regarding the Engel RMR and the 4 way switch to operate the bow planes on Gato. I have down loaded the wiring diagrams but am confused as to the connection between RMR and switch, only - wire. Also do i need to connect both RMR and switch to receiver, i am running out of channels. 1 channel rudder ,2 channels props 1 channel aft dive planes and 3 channels for ballast tanks, leaves me 1 for RMR and switch. Any info will be greatly appreciated
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 11:55:33 AM »

Hi
I have an RMR to operate the extend retract on my front dive planes on type xxi. The command to extend retract is by the application and removal of an earth connection for this I have used am Mtronics switcher. The switcher is connected to the receiver to the undercarriage switch, thus operating the undercarriage switch selects extend/ retract. So the connection from the RMR to the switcher is a single cable which takes the earth connectin fromRMR through switcher down servo wire connecting switcher to receiver then through receiver back to battery earth. There are 2 types of switcher on the market one provides the closing of a circuit. so it has a pos and meg connection you need this type to operate anything requiring med/high power ( no power goes through the switcher servo lead back to the receiver in this type) .The type which you need are like the Mtronics one I have it is for only low power switching there is no positive connection just an earth as this goes back through receiver any real power would burn it out. The earth connection on the RMR is just a ‘sensing’ line the current down it to earth will be timy
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 12:18:41 PM »

Hi Webbo
I hope my reply is Ok, To operate The RMR you will need a total of 2 receiver connections One to operate the dive plane angle and this goes to the RMR. Second to select dive plane fold and this goes to the  switcher. Single earth connection wire from RMR to switcher. During the set up RMR is connected for set up via a third servo connection only so the end positions of the fold connections can be adjusted once this is done this third connection is not needed and is taped up.
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 12:18:56 PM »

Hi Webbo
I hope my reply is Ok, To operate The RMR you will need a total of 2 receiver connections One to operate the dive plane angle and this goes to the RMR. Second to select dive plane fold and this goes to the  switcher. Single earth connection wire from RMR to switcher. During the set up RMR is connected for set up via a third servo connection only so the end positions of the fold connections can be adjusted once this is done this third connection is not needed and is taped up.
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 02:09:26 PM »

Sorry unit I have is an RME but I am sure it is similar

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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 02:15:16 PM »

Yes read Engel web page this unit is also operated extend/ retract using earth connection, earth connected/ not connected by use of a switcher (eg Mtroniks micro switcher)
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 03:34:05 PM »

Me again
Difference between RME and RMR is that RME used a servo to operate retract and RMR A motor. The purpose of both is the same, to put the dive plane angle to zero (neutral) before retraction and inhibit their movement in the retract position. For this reason the receiver outlet being used to control pitch can be fitted with a Y lead so it operates both pitch servos, just connect one y lead connection to the aft servo and the other to the RMR. Alternatively you could just control the front planes via the RMR and connect the rear planes servo to an auto leveller ( I did this with my Robbe U47 fitted with 750 ml Engel piston unit)
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webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 04:53:40 PM »

hi ken thanks for the help, i will try again tomorrow and let you know how i get on
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 07:04:14 PM »

What radio are you using?does it have a gear switch? I use old Futaba sky sports 6 handsets. As well as a gear switch it has a flap control which is a rotary knob. This is what I use to control my ballast tank. Dive /surface is thus selected by turning the knob clockwise or anti-clockwise. I prefer this to using one of the sticks as I am not going to accidentally catch it with my hand
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webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2018, 08:42:43 PM »

Using f14 but got a couple of sliders and 3 way switches on it
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webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2018, 10:15:31 AM »

Has anybody got an diagrams of this setup, apart from the engel ones . Still having problems, thinking now of taking whole bow plane assembly out ,thinking maybe problem with travel distance switch on motor travel switches , had same problem with tmax, ordered new so got a spare.Going backwards with this project
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Subculture

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2018, 11:40:18 AM »

It's just a relay based H-bridge, with additional sensing of when the Servo channel that actuates the planes is centred, and a pair of limit switches to avoid the mechanism winding up against itself.

A wiring diagram in pdf format is available on the Engel website- https://engel-modellbau.eu/shop/out/media/8440_RMR-GATO_E.pdf

If you're still not sure, might I suggest popping along to the Tadcaster Dive-in next Friday, where there will be at least one or two familiar with this rig.

webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2018, 04:10:54 PM »

Success to a degree got bow and stern planes working from channel 1, Rx lead from RMR. Rx lead from switch to channel 7 (4 way switch)  does nothing, but when i remove either rx lead or neg wire from RMR to switch bow planes retract wires back in bow planes extract. I've tried reversing the Rx leads and the same thing happens 3 way switch operates plane angle but channel 1 lever does nothing.What a mess cant figure where fault is, all working except extract ,retract command >>:-(
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 06:11:19 PM »

Your problem is this 4 way switcher. You need to look at irs instructions. It will help by checking its operation. Run a wire from battery positive to a small load (eg bulb) then meg from bulb to swither.


I expect your switcher is a latching type when you operate switch on radio to on then off I expect it will switch on output 1 on the switcher, second cycle of radio switch No 2 on so after 4 cycles of radio switch all 4 outputs of switcher are selected on. Then when you cycle radio switch for fifth time No 1 will go off so after 8 cycles of radio switch they are all off


The Mtroniks micro switcher I mentioned is selectable to be latching or non latching. (If you were using one of the sticks operating lights you would want to latch on until you switched them off again holding a stick over all the time to keep the lights on would be a pain, however if you were operating a horn you would want it non latching so horn only sounds as long as you hold the stick over
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2018, 08:08:19 PM »

It is a long time since I tried tested this set up,I then packed it away again until I build the sub but looking at the instructions for the Mtroniks switcher has stirred my grey stuff. If I now have it right when my front dive planes were driven directly by a servo this was by selection of the undercarriage switch. When I wanted to use an RME (to make sure they were central before retract and remained central). I had to operate the switcher I needed to use a proportional channel.


The Mtroniks unit has 2 connections 1 is selected by moving the stick right and the other by selecting stick left, as the stick is a momentary selection the switcher needs to be set for latching. So if we use the switcher connection that is worked by say stick right selecting stick right and back to neutral selects on , then moving stick right and back to neutral gives off. So as long as you have a proportional channel spare this type of switcher will work for you


Clearly as you have a 4 way switcher it can not work like this and cycling the stick loads of times to get the selection you want is not practical. Unless there is someone out there who knows better I think you need a Mtroniks switcher and save the one you have for operating things like arrays of lights
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2018, 08:58:42 PM »

Looked at the instructions for a 4 way switcher on e bay. This one only allows 1 output to be on at a time perhaps you have one of these so as you cycle through the 4 connections as one comes on the previous goes off( so 4 cycles of the switch to get back to the beginning).


It needs plus’s 100 % and minus 100% so recommends a 2 position switch( such as undercarriage) but on a proportional channel this should work by operating  the stick fully one way then fully the other ( you would need to experiment to find out which way first).
So if you have one of these it should work it will just be clumsy having 3 redundant selections to cycle through to get back to the one you are using. You would have to put up with this if your only spare channel is a 2 position switch ( +100%/-100%). If you have a spare proportional channel / or 3 position switch ( +100%, zero,-100%) the you could use the Mtroniks unit and not have redundant cycles
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2018, 07:16:42 AM »

You can quickly check your RMR by physically getting the special earth wire and putting it on and off the battery earth by hand . This will prove the RMR works and it is just the switcher that needs sorting.


Although Engel web site mentions using a four way switcher you only need a one way. This is what the Mtroniks unit can do operating stick in one direction gives control of one item time after time with no cycling


I looked up ghe f14 online it appears these sliders you refer to are proportional like a stick so one of these would be ideal for Mtroniks.


When connected to a self cantering stick you need to have it in latching mode, but as your slider stays where it is you could use non latching the fold/ unfold of the planes would then follow the position of the slider 1 direction and back to zero......very neat


Of course the other connection on the switcher is not being used so you will have to think of something else to operate lights/snorkel. My U47 has the power type switchers connected to operate mp3 cards to play sound effects dive Claxton and sonar ‘ping’, yes I know the ping noise does not come from the sub but it sounds neat and it surprises spectators




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webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2018, 12:16:17 PM »

 {:-{ Well i haven't got any were yet, bow planes retract when i remove earth wire etc but i cant get it to operate by switch which i know is working. sent away for mtronics switcher so will wait for that,will also email Engel  though i don't expect much help that way. Don't like to give up but this is starting to wear me down, will let you know how i get on with mtronics and i might just make Tadcaster
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2018, 01:37:02 PM »

Hi webbo
Are you saying the bow planes fold in and out when you put the special earth wire directly on and off the battery negative, if this is the case the RMR is good and it is just the switcher.


The switcher you are using will have 3 pins for connection of a servo lead, when it is operated it links 2 of the pins together ( pos and neg) to complete a circuit. So all you have is 4 remote operated switches. You don’t need one that closes a switch to complete a circuit you need one that just provides an earth so your switcher works but it is the wrong type as I mentioned in an earlier post


This is what the Mtroniks unit will do for you it has a servo lead connection to the receiver and just 2 more connections each for an earth wire.


The Mtroniks will DEFINATELY fix it as it is the type of switcher you need. Plug this switcher into the receiver that is operted by a slider connect one connector on the switcher to earth connection of RMR. Follow set up procedure of switcher. I suggest you set up for momentary operation. Move slider fully one way if planes do not operate put slider the other way. Clearly you choose which one of the 2 earths you connect to to give you the slider operation you want. For example slider forward planes out, slider back to middle planes in. Again if you set switcher to latching you would need to select slider forward and back to middle for out, then forward and back to middle for in


Do not loose heart this Mtroniks switcher IS the right type . I do not live far away enough from you to give you duff gen
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webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2018, 02:46:30 PM »

Cheers Ken
Yeah just waiting for mtronics switcher to arrive , also mailed Engel for a explanation but we will have to wait to see if they reply,get this sorted and can start to finish off the Gato. Get it all working and then start on something new. Regards Webbo
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2018, 02:49:42 PM »

When you have your dive planes working OK, you will have a spare connection on you switcher..... unused function =sin.


Suggest you take a positive supply to supply external lights (led). Connect earth from lights back to switcher ( select latched for this connection) then dive planes will work when slider moved in one direction  and lights can be operated by moving slider in opposite direction. Full use of functions and working lights = self satisfaction.
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2018, 02:59:25 PM »

I am surprised Engel do not supply a suitable switcher. The Mtroniks one that works by providing an earth I have not found this type made by anyone else the fact that it works with my RME shows that this is the one you need, I must admit I trawled the internet for a very long time though I knew exactly what type of switcher I needed finding one was another matter.


Problem is both types are advertised as switchers by the sellers and unless you know different it is easy to presume they all work the same ! But clearly not!
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2018, 04:11:44 PM »

I know I am like a dog with a bone but have been investigating further and I realise I know of at least three switcher types


1 I use some switchers for high power these also control 2 functions by operating stick one way or the other
By use of a jumper latching or non latching. Each function has 2 connections you take one to a battery earth then battery pos to the load then other side of load back to second contact of switcher. This is then a radio controlled switch that controls an electronic switch to complete a circuit ( current capacity of electronic switch is limiting factor in current capacity) both functions can be on at the same time if wanted


2 one like yours more than 2 functions (but only one at a time) . No external power supply like above, power and earth through servo lead from receiver ( so not high power) The earth will be permanent and the power cycled between the outputs ( this is why it works as such but is no good to you it is a switched positive and you need switched negative


3 Mtroniks type ( only one I can find like this) a bit of a mixture of the other 2 above. Controls 2 functions each function can be selected latched or not latched both can be on at the same time if wanted but importantly it works by switching the earth on and off ( not the positive as in type 2). This is the only type that will work with your RMR. To make a light work you supply the positive to the light and run the earth to the switcher again on and of is achieved by the switcher applying or removing this earth
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Ken G121

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2018, 07:58:22 PM »

Hi webbo
To be fair to Engel on the instructions for the RMR they advise switcher item 8431 is suitable


Typing 8431 into search on Engel site gives switcher priced at € 19.80


Looking at the wiring diagram this does work by switching the earth.


Like the Mtroniks unit needs a proportional stick or 3 position switch, it switches outputs one and two by moving the stick fully one way and the other. The switching is latched so repeating this operation switches off. 3 and 4 are switched in the same manner but the switch is held over longer


I think this Engel unit is thus probably a bit more tricky to operate correctly but great if you want to operate 4 things and be able to have 1,2,3 or all 4 on at the same time


If you don’t need to operate more than 2 things then Mtroniks looks a simpler and easier to operate.  This is especially true as you can have it non latching and if these sliders work as I presume and stay where they are when you take your finger off then this is the way to go. Fold unfold just by moving slider to one end and back to middle
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webbo

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Re: ENGEL GATO
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2018, 12:35:34 PM »

Instant success, just plugged it in and off we went, no set up at all. Its channelled to a 3 way switch up is retract middle extract and down is off , works great. I may change to slider but first need to get all the gubbins back into sub and pressure test.Thanks very much for your help Ken. :-) :-) :-)
Still waiting to hear from Mr Engel

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