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Author Topic: Steam engine from China qb3  (Read 16606 times)

rhavrane

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2020, 09:00:10 pm »

Bonjour,
C'est bon monsieur RST  ok2

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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine Comparisons
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2020, 01:14:05 am »

Reading back over the early days of this thread, which started out as discussion of the Q3B engine from Jin, I see not only did we discuss the Q3B, but the TVR1A gets a mention as well as our experiences with the M29.  I'd like to back up a little and ask about experiences with the TVR1A and the smaller Microcosm engines Jin calls the M2B and the M36. My real question is whether anyone has run either these and what working pressure they  might require to power a 1m, 14.5lb  boat. Or perhaps I should say, would they work for such an application using a 2" dia. boiler??


I assembled a TVR1A and thought it would be OK to run such a boat using a Miniature Steam Models (MSM) 2" vertical boiler. I had very modest expectation for the runtime (autonomy) of the steam plant at 10 minutes. But the boiler was able to keep a sustained WP of only 8 or 9 psi, and while the boat moves along ok as you see in the video, the performance in my opinion is very marginal and I intend to switch out the 2" boiler for a 3" boiler and be able to have a wide speed range and possibly a steam whistle. The boat has a 2.4" 4-blade prop, and looks like this in her partially completed form


Here is my launch RIVAL on her maiden run in a small pond. Run time about 8 minutes. I had only RC rudder control, so speed and reverse are not included yet. I will say this certainly appears to be a scale-like speed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxfB2gCK8ng


So this leads me to wondering the best thing and boat to utilize the 2" boiler?  It looks like a smaller oscillating engine is the best candidate. I find 6 possibilities, as you can see on the attached comparison table. I like the MSM Clyde but MSM won't commit to saying it will run adequately on the 2" boiler. If I have to use oe of the smallest 8 x 11 engines, I'll have to build a much smaller boat!




I'm interested in experiences with any of these small engines knowing they are to be steamed from a 2" boiler.


I hope the photos are in the right order...if they appear at all (they are not appearing in Preview)


Thanks for any comments


-Carl



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Bernhard

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2020, 06:26:01 am »

Nice boat..I never go faster with mine boats . Why not just get a small waterpump in..elpume from regner from De they  make great working , very small One..
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rhavrane

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2020, 08:20:35 am »

Bonjour Carl,
Based on my experience, your launch could operate with a 2 cm3. And for comparison, here are the French manufacturers sites for products ans prices :

   - Anton : http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/

   - JMC    : https://www.jmc-vapeur.fr/
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2020, 11:16:45 pm »

aaa
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2020, 05:13:46 am »

Rafael thanks for the comment--


I am not familiar with the exact science of the engine displacement; I've been comparing engine size by looking only at bore and stroke, but the volume in cm3 makes terrific sense. I found this little tool on the internet that shows me when you say 2cm3 what size engine that might be. 


https://spicerparts.com/calculators/engine-displacement-calculator


Thanks for the leads to Anton and JVC, I haven't looked there for these engines-- for one reason they are pretty expensive.


Can you comment on the general differences in comparing a slide valve engine to an oscillating engine, assuming they are about the same displacement?


When I substitute the 3" boiler here, I'll have the 2" boiler as an "extra" and it will need not only a new small engine, but a new small boat!


-Carl
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2020, 05:47:55 am »

Well this confuses me now.  I used that displacement calculator, it says 10 x 10 x 2 cyl is 1.57 cm3.  The JMC literature says the JMC-3V which has 10 x 10 bore and stroke is 3cm3.   For the JMC-2, the literature says 8 x 10 and 2cm3, but the calculator says this is 1.01 cm3 This is pretty big difference. Can you help me by explaining why these would be different?


for a 10mm x 10mm Displacement is this not: pi x 5r x 5r x 10 stroke x 2cyl= 1570 mm3= 1.57 cm3???  Why does JMC change these numbers?  Maybe there is something I do not understand?


Silly to ask, but is there a difference between CC and cm3? (I don't think so)
-Carl
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Jerry C

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2020, 05:58:40 am »

If the engine is double acting you have to take into consideration below the piston too. It’s capacity is a little smaller due to the piston rod. So your capacity calculated x <2.
Jerry.

derekwarner

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2020, 06:05:53 am »

Carl.....just a word of caution with that calculator .app below..........


.....it appears to only consider single acting volumes .......being the bore x the stroke x the number of cylinders in either Metric or Imperial end result


One of the difficulties with double acting engines ....it is not simply multing such initial results x 2  >>:-( ....as the actual effective bore diameter or volume of the return motion is reduced annulus area of the piston rod

To further complicate this is to need to understand that the thickness of the actual pistons plates themselves reduces the swept volume on the return motion even though the stroke remains unaltered :-X

Derek
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2020, 06:08:02 am »

Ok subtract a tiny bit for the dia. and length of the piston rod lower section, but my question is why does JMC make these claims about the displacement of their Monobloc engines? Is this a marketing license, like poetic license?


-cm
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2020, 06:18:11 am »

Here's what I refer to:
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derekwarner

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2020, 06:37:00 am »

Carl......lets let Raphael [a Froggrie] answer this with the aid of his mate Jean Michael [JMC]....


If you look at the engine you have copied from their WEB site describes it as a Monoblock....and other references indicate that Monoblock can be single cylinder and some as double acting, but no reference to single acting


They do use the term..... "double effect plan drawers".......which I believe may be translated as double acting


I suspect some form of dialect corruption here when the WEB pages were translated as the image you show appears as a twin cylinder engine with eccentric driven plate valving which suggests as double acting and with Stephensons reversing gear


This then rounds out an engine volumetric displacement in this format


Derek
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2020, 07:41:01 am »

Yes I hope Raphael will explain. But read on, maybe he doesn't need to: This certainly looks like  2 cylinder double acting slide valve engine. I would assume bore is piston dia. and stroke is the max throw of the piston from top to bottom. I do the math, and yes make slight correction for the piston rod and piston thickness. This reduces the available volume, or displacement, on the down stroke only. Are you saying that my error is that the total displacement is the upstroke volume PLUS the downstroke volume? This totally explains why the JMC displacement number is much larger then just the calculated upstroke volume.  This would be the total volume of steam displaced in one 360 turn of the crank, I get it!  I think this is what Jerry was telling me.


This is probably so obvious to you steamer guys that nobody believed I had not thought of that. Hah


Ok, now I see further that this does NOT apply to the oscillator engines, since they are not double-acting. 


When can I turn in my newbie badge?


carl




PS- I took Monobloc to mean it's all one piece. It seems like a descriptor more than a product name.

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Jerry C

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2020, 09:00:00 am »

Hi Carl, oscillating engines can be double acting too.
There are loads available.
Jerry.

Geoff

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2020, 01:57:07 pm »

I have a couple of steam powered models (Canopus 1899 at 53" Victorian Battleship) which uses a Cheddar Models Puffin with MK1 boiler. The model weights about 35 pounds and sails at a good speed and I get exactly 30 mins sailing before the water runs out.


the other is Velox 1908 destroyer at 65" long - I don't know the weight but this uses a Cheddar Puffin Boiler Mk2 so has about 40% more volume and uses my own designed in line double actin twin oscillator. Maximum speed is a good walking pace and I get 30 mins sailing before the water runs out despite 40% more water and I put this down to the fact the engine is a little bigger than a Puffin and is turning over faster to get me the speed I need.


In general terms I have always understood oscillating engines to use more steam than either slide valve or piston valve. However oscillating engines are much easier to make whereas slide valve/piston valve uses less steam for the same power output. Is this really true or is it that they tend to run on slightly higher pressures and there is less steam leakage? (I read Oscillators are really limited to about 45 psi (3-bar) as beyond this the cylinders just move away from the faces causing leakage. Greater pressure springs could be used but this significantly increases friction so is a law of diminishing returns.


Has anyone actually done a controlled test between the two types?


Cheers


Geoff


Cheers


Geoff



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frazer heslop

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2020, 10:51:06 pm »

Historically some full sized oscillators used steam pressure to hold the cylinder to the port face.This allows for higher pressures.The only model one Iv seen is Malcolm Beaks 3 cylinder Paddle engine.
Generally oscillators dont have cut off lap/leed unless they are using the EVT concept or Harry Wedges ideas on porting as found in KN Harris book not the boiler one the other the title escapes me at the moment
From my experience the oscillators are more reliable when on the water although I have a couple of D/A slide valve engines waiting for a hull one designed by Malcolm Beak the MB22 that punches above its weight the other my own design.
Iv never tried to do a comparison but realistically would not think there would be much difference .
An often missed design point for oscillators is to reduce the mass of the cylinder especially around the pivot as the forces cause premature were and tears
From experience piston valves are difficult to get a proper fit and generally become worn quickly the old adage Slide valves wear in whilst Piston valves wear out comes to mind
Just my two bobs worth
cheers
Notes on the EVT concept for oscillating steam engines - By Michael Martin


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rhavrane

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2020, 05:20:00 pm »

Bonjour,
a week in the Alpes for skiying is perfect to wash my head  :-))

As the langage bareer is always a pain fot me  and because I have read lot f right things in the messages, Carl, could you please remind me your question if you have one?
To summarize :

At first CC, cc and cm3 are the same meanings for "centimètres cubes".

JMC and Anton do not build any single acting machine, only double and they can be with slide valves (Stephenson), cylindrical valves (vertical or in Vé) and sometimes oscillating (also vertical or in Vé) .

When I (and lot of people, manufacturers includes) calculate cylinders volume for any machine, we do not take in account the volume of the piston rod  we calculate a theorical perfect volume of a double effect machine.
This is why a 8 bore (alésage)  x 12 stroke (course) is noted as a 2,01 ==> 2 cm3 machine.

After, the choice of an oscillating or drumstick machine depends on building capacities, money, envy,opportunity... Based on my experience, for a same cylinders volume, an oscilating machine is cheaper but does not appreciate more than 2-3 bar (30-45 PSI) and seems less powerful.

And the most important thing to my opinion is to find the appropriate propeller to have all the benefit of the torque.
I always use 4 (or 5) blades propellers,
examplex: 1,5 - 2 cm3 = 50 mm max; 3 cm3 = 68 mm max; 5 cm3 = 78 mm max; 7 - 8 cm3 = 90 mm max; 20 cm3 = 120 mm :-))


For fun, my smallest baby, a 2 x 0,5 cm3 single acting bi oscillating runabout : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5R6fVEhZko

And I repeat that our boats are overpowerd.
  My 16 kilos Fulgerul has 2 x Anton Quartz : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jombigGCM8&t=541s
  And my 20 kilos dreadnought Liberté will have these 3 x 1,4 cm3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So3cXcHA-VI
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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carlfmiller

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Re: Steam engine displacement
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2020, 05:01:08 am »

Thanks Rafael, I understand all that, translation is excellent.


Did you laugh when I asked about cm3 vs. CC?? I was mostly kidding....


Now I know that to find displacement in a double-acting engine, the volume of the cylinder is almost doubled, once above the piston, once below. So obvious nobody ever said it.


Yes I am installing 3" (85mm) boiler for my TVR1A.  I might get a little oscillator to power with the 2" boiler-- but no boat for it, what shall I do???


Á bientôt,


Carl
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rhavrane

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2020, 08:34:50 am »

Bonjour Carl,
I have to confess that I did not really laugh, you, English people, drive on on the wrong side of the roads and use incomprehensible measures instead of universal ones ok2

And as usual unfortunately, obvious information is often omitted {:-{

let us know your experience with the TVR1A, as a 8 cm3 it is steam consuming and for several of my friends it is fragile. Mine is a BB with bearings ut still it its box ;

With your small boiler, I would kindly suggest you a 2 cm3 machine and a little boat like my launch Antje:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG_hJ9nj5x4
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Raphaël
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frazer heslop

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2020, 02:26:58 pm »

Bonjour, Rafael, The UK has been metric for many years we just stick to the proper measurement system out of cussedness and even the metric system has its problems
A little light reading  perhaps.
http://www.vapeur45.fr/normes-et-regles/113-dimensionnement-du-moteur-oscillant


http://www.vapeur45.fr/normes-et-regles/5-reglementation-sur-les-chaudieres
cheers
frazer
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rhavrane

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2020, 10:15:09 pm »

Bonjour Frazer,

I was joking ! I'm sure I'm as comfortable with metric measures as you are with imperial ones.

Thanks for the links, but I acquired my knowledge through practice for 12 years and the chance to have a large collection of various boats and machines. I always have a hard time with book theory, especially since I practice with tiny machines at a pressure of about 2 bar / 30 PSI.

In France, officially, only boilers of more than 25 liters have to be certified every year by an independant organism as APAVE, this is why the few scale 1 launches or locomotives or trucks built there have 24,99 liters boilers max  ok2  which may be auto certified in their clubs. 

Vapeur 45 is a club who has edicted his own rules, more restictive than the previous I wrote because they evoke 2 liters but I make perhaps a mistake, especially bacause I have no boiler of 2 liters, I prefer smaller ones with feed pumps ok2
[/size]And I also guess that this is why our manufacturers as JMC or Anton may deliver a certificat for 10 bar and they may do it by themselves, they would not take the risk to be outlaw, and I wonder if they build boilers of more than 2 liters...
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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carlfmiller

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Joking
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2020, 10:56:28 pm »

Just a note that even though I joked about cm3 vs. CC, in Hawaii we do drive on the "correct" side of the road. And, in USA we have failed at use of metric units-- I have to confess, I am guilty. But now in this steam engine business I am being forced to mix metric and SAE units all the time. Gets confusing at times. But so far I am lucky to not have encountered any BE threads (I think). But I am really happy that 1/4-40 seems to be almost everyone's favorite pipe thread.


Thanks for the comments and knowledge you all share!  :-))


Carl   

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derekwarner

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2020, 02:42:42 am »

So Carl says....." lucky to not have encountered any BE threads" ......not sure Carl......but you may mean BA which is a complicated Metric thread form.......

"The angle of the thread is 47.5° and the depth of thread is 0.6 times the pitch with rounded tops and bottoms. Thus the shortening at the crest and root is given by 0.26817p with a radius of 0.18083p at both crest and root {-) "

But there is also Model Engineer thread form

"The British Model Engineer Thread is based on the Whitworth thread with a pitch of 32 and 40 TPI. A commercial use of this standard does not exist. The flank angle is 55°"

Then there is the famous 26tpi constant ''Brass" thread O0

You Folks in the US of A decided to complicate the available nuts never to screw onto anyone elses bolt >>:-( with all of that UN series milackary


At least the Froggies and the Germans had the educated sense to stick with metric thread forms, then just to complicate added Metric Fine


So not to be outdone, the Japanese decided to used JIS Metric whos' nuts also didn't screw onto a French or German bolt


Jin from Microcosm's Chinese machine shops standard 15 mm diameter 4 bolt flange set for 1/8" & 5/32" tube has M2 diameter bolts with 3.5mm AF head to a Chinese Metric Standard whilst the same 15 mm diameter a standard 4 bolt flange set 1/8" & 5/32" tube as supplied by Winfried Niggle from Germany had M2 bolts with 3.0mm AF heads to ISO Metric Fine Head

In reality, I suggest if starting from scratch.....we would ISO Metric and ISO Metric Fine  :-))  ......at least we wouldn't get our nuts in a tangle  %)


Derek
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carlfmiller

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Thread thread?
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2020, 03:07:27 am »

Derek


I am in awe, all the more so as I realize just how lucky I am to not have experienced any of these.  (I thought BE = British Engineering--I twisted BME, made up a whole new thread!)  Another joke gone awry.


Career Manufacturing Engineer, 40 years USA aerospace industry; never had to worry once about all these funny threads. Safe was I in my ignorance!


-cm


(as in centimeter)
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rhavrane

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Re: Steam engine from China qb3
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2020, 06:46:23 am »

Bonjour,


This discussion, even if a little bit far from the title of this topic is very instructive and thanks to Derek, I realize that "I" (my manufacturers) effectively use sometilmes two metric thread measures : 5 x 0.50, 6 x 0,75 - 7 x 0,75 - 8 x 0,75 or 8 x 1.0, 10 x 0,75 or 10 x 1.0 and curiously no 9 x nn.

But I do not know the different thread angles.


Hopefully, for all 3 mm pipes, all accessories or connectivity is based on 6 x 0,75 links, but sometimes nuts are 7 mm and sometimes 8 mm... Am I true... ? In our passion too it could be done with optimizations  :}
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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