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Author Topic: Newbie needing help on everything  (Read 7089 times)

CJK

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Newbie needing help on everything
« on: March 03, 2019, 10:02:15 PM »

Transferred from Chit-Chat https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,62612.0.html
Observations:
She’s bow heavy. Water level about 4mm above the waterline at the bow and 6mm below at the stern.
Has a very very small seepage where the starboard prop tube goes through the hull.
Prop shaft inboard tube ends are 25mm below the waterline. Sings of water getting up there. How do you keep the water from traveling up the tubes? Starboard seems worse that port. See photo.
Rudder spindles are also below water line but seem to be leaking.
Electrics are a mess – no fuse protection at all. No switch on the battery cable. Components not secured properly.

From malcolmfrary..............
Bow heavy - the main contributor to the center of gravity is the battery - a lighter battery plus compensating ballast will allow this to be corrected by you being able to pick where the battery and ballast go.Seepages around prop and rudder tubes - application of epoxy to seal the gaps. Thinned slow epoxy to get into the probably very narrow gaps.
Water resistant grease is good for stopping water from getting up prop and rudder tubes - also good for lube.  Look through the site search engine, there are as many preferred tube lube solutions as modellers.
I didn't see any in the pics, but I would look for some brass or stainless washers to use as thrust washers at both the inside and outside ends of the shaft.  They also serve as seals when greased.
Other white metals apart from aluminium are steel and nickel silver, you find out which when the surface corrodes.
As an ex-electric tech, I have found that modern electrics in sedate models don't need much fixing down, just enough restraint to discourage them from wandering around.  A bit of plastic channel from the useful bit at B&Q does that.  The rubber band shown along with the natural stiffness of the wire will do a perfectly adequate job.  Sometimes Blu-Tak does the job.  Depends on whether or not anybody will be looking.
I am assuming two motors but one ESC.  A fuse between Battery and ESC is usually surplus - it is only protecting against a faulty ESC.  Fusing the individual motors is a good idea when there is more than one motor as it provides a handy test point..........................

Malcolm - Taking a closer look at where the SLA is placed I can now see that there are two pieces of plastic angle that are fixed 135mm apart (shown below) that is the length of a 6 cell rechargeable so I think its safe to say this boat has had a 7.2v battery in it before. As you and another have suggested to go that way that is what I will do. There is a weight difference of approx 320g, the Ni-MH being lighter. This alone may cure the COG problem but it may also make the boat sit a bit higher in the water. Would it be correct to say the closer the boat sits to the waterline the more stable it would be? Either way extra well placed ballast would sort it - yes?

Seepage is easily cured with filler as you suggest - I wont have any problems there.

Panic took over with the 'water up the stern tube' thing. Your advice and what Ive since gleaned from the internet has made me realise its no great deal if approached correctly. Various washers (nylon, neoprene and brass) have been ordered plus some prop grease.

You assumed correctly - two motors one SLC.

I have now decided to strip out the electrics, props and rudders to check everything and change if required.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2019, 09:35:00 AM »

The trick with ballast is to get it as low as possible, preferably well spread out, and below the waterline.  Models tend to sail in conditions that would be, if scaled up to full size, well beyond what any sensible skipper would ever consider going out in.
Bonus tip - when fitting props, make sure that locknuts are actually locked.  Lots of props have been lost due to locknuts just being tightened.  Use of thread locking compound helps as well.
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skierdive

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2019, 05:18:47 PM »

Welcome to the forum.


Long winded explanations and questions are fine by me .
The more information given should hopefully get you a more accurate answer/suggestion.
I'm glad you've started out straight away by posting photos . As the old adage goes, "A Picture Paints A Thousand..........".


My first thoughts on your prop shaft metallic dust were that it could be solder, if maybe the previous owner had tried to attach a Lube Tube to the prop shaft. However, it may be indicating that the inner shaft may no longer be straight and is catching on the inside of the outer tube. When you run the motors look/listen out for any untoward noises or vibrations.   


Good luck with your model and any future builds,


Ian.     
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CJK

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2019, 09:31:46 AM »

Work still being done - slowly . The main reason is having to wait for bits and pieces ordered via the internet. So far I've been unable to find any local modelling shops that cater for rc boats - plenty that do trains and planes. The nearest is a 100 mile round trip!  :(( I didn't realize how much kit you need when starting from scratch, luckily most of it is a one time expense.

Have decided to change the rudders to a double rod system and remount the servo. The double rods will give much easier access for individual adjustment - the servo will have a more robust fixing.


Have a couple of questions regarding the image below. The motors only have one capacitor apiece, is that sufficient?The blue and yellow cables coming from the ESC are heavy gauge and yet are connected to the motors by a much lighter gauge - that is confusing me? Incidentally I will be changing the connector to a better type - Tamiya maybe?

Hopefully the propshaft grease will come today and I can start fitting again.
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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2019, 11:34:15 AM »

Pm sent.


Stan
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DaveM

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2019, 12:18:28 PM »

The ESC you have is capable of carrying a lot more current than the 385 motors will draw, so the cables fitted to both will be fine.
 If you're using a 2G4 radio then you won't need any further suppression on the motors because that frequency is unaffected by RFI generated by the motor commutators.
I wouldn't fit Tamiya connectors for two reasons - they can slacken off and become unreliable over time, and you have similar connectors elsewhere which might result in plugging things into the wrong device. Choc blocks are great for domestic single-core copper cabling but I wouldn't let one within a mile of any multi-core flex unless you fit proper crimped bootlace ferrules to it first.
You might find this useful reading http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054
Dave M
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CJK

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 02:54:27 PM »

The ESC you have is capable of carrying a lot more current than the 385 motors will draw, so the cables fitted to both will be fine.
 If you're using a 2G4 radio then you won't need any further suppression on the motors because that frequency is unaffected by RFI generated by the motor commutators.
I wouldn't fit Tamiya connectors for two reasons - they can slacken off and become unreliable over time, and you have similar connectors elsewhere which might result in plugging things into the wrong device. Choc blocks are great for domestic single-core copper cabling but I wouldn't let one within a mile of any multi-core flex unless you fit proper crimped bootlace ferrules to it first.
You might find this useful reading http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/but-i-don't-understand-electronics/18054
Dave M
If I may just clarify - simply put if it had bigger motors the motor wires would have to be bigger too? I'm sorry but I do not know what 2G4 means - its not mentioned in the radio handbook unless 2G4 is an abbreviation of something that is in there that I'm not recognizing - my TX is an FS-i6 and RX, FS-IA6 if that helps. The ESC is quite an old model I think and may need setting up to suit my radio. I can't find anything on the net about the M.sonik-3. However have found a instruction sheet for an M.sonik-4, am hoping that the setup will be the same - when I get time to reading it thoroughly.

Could you suggest another type of connector please? I would really like to get away from choc blocks.

Have seen and printed that article - found it interesting but wont fully understand everything in it until I have learnt some of the terminology.Colin
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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 03:08:40 PM »

HI Colin 2.4 refers to the new radio  systems that are now in use no crystals are used in these sets. If you fit larger motors you may find the speedo will not be able to handle the current two motors draw. The speedo you have is about 10/15 years old  and if it is a marine speedo  it is rated at 20 amps. I may have some info on setting up your speedo please my pm to you.

Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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CJK

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 04:05:39 PM »

Are 2.4GHz, that I recognize  ;) . Wont be fitting different motors to this boat - its being used as a learning/practise mule. Have you read my intro in Chit Chat (link in first post this topic), that explains what I'm hoping to get from this boat, its just a means to gain a bit of knowledge before I 'lay the keel down' for my fist home built model.
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SailorGreg

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 04:06:38 PM »

If I may just clarify - simply put if it had bigger motors the motor wires would have to be bigger too? I'm sorry but I do not know what 2G4 means - its not mentioned in the radio handbook unless 2G4 is an abbreviation of something that is in there that I'm not recognizing - my TX is an FS-i6 and RX, FS-IA6 if that helps. The ESC is quite an old model I think and may need setting up to suit my radio. I can't find anything on the net about the M.sonik-3. However have found a instruction sheet for an M.sonik-4, am hoping that the setup will be the same - when I get time to reading it thoroughly.

Could you suggest another type of connector please? I would really like to get away from choc blocks.

Have seen and printed that article - found it interesting but wont fully understand everything in it until I have learnt some of the terminology.Colin
Yes, if you fit a bigger (= more powerful) motor you may well need thicker wires.  The ESC shouldn't need any setting up due to your radio - you should be able to plug the ESC into your receiver and crack on from there.  Is your receiver bound to the transmitter? If they came as a set it should be, but if you bought them separately you will need to go through the binding procedure, which should be in the transmitter instructions.  As already mentioned, 2G4 is a slightly lazy way of writing 2.4 GHz, which is the frequency that your transmitter and receiver operate on.
As for connectors, I suggest either Deans or XT60, both of which are more reliable than Tamiya and should handle any current you are likely to pass through them.  You can buy them through many online shops such as Component Shop, Cornwall Model Boats or Hobbyking.  You may have to brush up on your soldering, neither are the easiest to fit onto bare wires.  Either make up a block of wood with a hole that holds the connector rigid as you solder, or clamp it to a flat surface. 

Hope that helps a bit.  Keep asking questions though, it's the best way to learn quickly.
Happy modelling
Greg

skierdive

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 07:36:57 PM »


Re:  Soldering different types of connector.
  There are some good instructional videos on Youtube.


Ian.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2019, 09:12:11 AM »

While at the shopping and setting up stage, one item that should be in every home is a servo tester.  If you don't mind the wait, cheap as chips from China.  Cost a bit more from UK, but less wait.  Great for setting up servos, but also good for testing ESCs and switchers without getting confused by the radio.
For suppression, I have never fitted 3, the extra two are only theoretically beneficial at best, and a fault liability at worst.  Never had a problem, and I tend to go for cheap radios.  Old, tired, worn motors are generally beyond saving by suppression, and need mending with a new one.  While 2G4 radios operate well outside the frequencies generated by motors and are unaffected, there is a path for local interference via the "back door".  Signal wiring can pick up stray noise, the semiconductors in the output stages of the radio can detect it and send the result back out as a spurious signal having amplified it.
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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2019, 04:09:56 PM »

HI Colin You should be now on your way with your project. Its not rocket science just common sense  and just remember one thing walk before you can run. Good luck with your project hope all goes well

Stan. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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CJK

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2019, 08:48:43 PM »

I have a learnt a lot over the last few days thanks to input provided my members of this forum  :-)) still have a long way to go, but enough to get Calypso on the water. My credit card has had a good caning getting bits, bobs and tools and there's still a way to go yet.  :o Next in line is a Servo Tester and a Multi Tool. Ultimately I will need an Air Brush and Compressor, but that is some way off yet.

Ive decided you use TX150 connectors - yes I know they are BIG, but after watching soldering tips on Youtube I liked the fact you could remove the terminals to solder. Past soldering attempts suggest this is the best way for me to go.
Ref. servo testers; two choices (links below) - which would you choose, digital or analogue?

https://uk.banggood.com/HJ-Digital-Servo-Tester-or-ESC-Consistency-Tester-for-RC-Airplane-p-71970.html?gmcCountry=GB&currency=GBP&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_bgcs&utm_content=garman&utm_campaign=pla-gbg-toy-brand-pc&cur_warehouse=CN
or
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-servo-tester.html?countrycode=GB&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjYirz-zw4AIVSbTtCh2fOg9AEAQYASABEgKuLvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&___store=en_us
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coch y bonddu

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2019, 09:57:32 PM »

Have a look at the Component shop website they sell a cheap one Ive got one and it is superb




https://www.componentshop.co.uk/servo-tester.html?___SID=U


Dave

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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2019, 08:33:28 AM »

Information on how to contact c/shop already passed along with many more contact numbers to help this member with his project. But thank you for the link.


Stan
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2019, 10:41:26 AM »

The "analogue" ones sit there and work, relying on you looking at the mark on the knob or a spare servo arm to gauge what should be happening on the item being tested or set up.  The digital one tells you the pulse width being sent via its display.
Mine was a couple of quid from fleabay with a couple of weeks wait.  You makes your choice and you pays your money.
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CJK

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2019, 11:20:20 AM »

The "analogue" ones sit there and work, relying on you looking at the mark on the knob or a spare servo arm to gauge what should be happening on the item being tested or set up.  The digital one tells you the pulse width being sent via its display.
Mine was a couple of quid from fleabay with a couple of weeks wait.  You makes your choice and you pays your money.
'Pulse width', I'm sure that would be really useful if I knew what it meant  %) :} I think I'll go for the simple one - simple suits my style.  :embarrassed:
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DaveM

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2019, 11:43:26 AM »

'Pulse width', I'm sure that would be really useful if I knew what it meant  %) :} I think I'll go for the simple one - simple suits my style.  :embarrassed:
Extract from the article which you printed out: "You can’t just connect a load like a bulb to the output pins of a receiver and expect it to operate when you move the transmitter stick, because the receiver is not itself a switch. It puts out a signal voltage pulse through one wire of each channel’s connectors. The length of these pulses is varied by movement of the stick or switch on the transmitter and ranges typically between 1 and 2 thousandths of a second (1-2mS) as you move the stick. The other two wires of the channel’s output are at 0v and +5v all of the time. In order to make sense of this variable signal pulse the device which is plugged into the receiver needs a circuit to detect it, decode it and change it to drive an output which can be used by the load. In a servo this output drives the servo motor. In a radio-controlled switch it operates either an electromechanical relay or a semiconductor which, in turn, switches an external circuit e.g. lights, winch motor, sound unit."
"Pulse width" in this context means the same as pulse length i.e. somewhere between 1 and 2 milliseconds. You don't need anything as sophisticated as the 'digital' one.
DM

 
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2019, 10:21:45 AM »

'Pulse width', I'm sure that would be really useful if I knew what it meant  %) :} I think I'll go for the simple one - simple suits my style.  :embarrassed:
When you get a drawing of a pulse, the lump in the drawn line goes so far across the page.  Depending on the direction that you are looking at the picture from, that distance can be either the "length", or the "width".  Wonderful language, English.
But the simple option will work perfectly well.  Sometimes, it helps to plug a spare servo in one of the extra outlets so that you get a view of what it is actually doing and you can tell if the thing being tested is behaving as it should, or, since it needs to be tested, just how it is misbehaving.  The digital one tells you in precise detail, using the arm of a known good servo is, for all practical purposes, just as useful.
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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2019, 10:57:40 AM »

Hi just have simple servo tester works fine nothing to fancy.


Stan.
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ChrisF

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2019, 06:59:16 PM »

Information on how to contact c/shop already passed along with many more contact numbers to help this member with his project. But thank you for the link.


Stan


Not in this thread unless I've missed it?
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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2019, 08:11:03 PM »

HI Chrisf having spoken to cjk  all contact numbers were passed by phone.

Stan.
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ChrisF

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 10:10:54 AM »

Other posters wouldn't have known that though Stan.

Chris
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Stan

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Re: Newbie needing help on everything
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 10:49:36 AM »

Sorry for not posting contact numbers but I am sure many regular members will know these numbers off by heart.


Stan.
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