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Author Topic: question on the Nelson era sailing ships  (Read 3529 times)

pokherman

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question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« on: March 14, 2019, 06:47:40 pm »


Ok so we all know that us Brits has had and will always have the so called best navy …although with the cut backs and MP's we have now im not to sure..any way, that's another debate for another time..


But I want to cast back to the age of sail..The question is quite simple in a way.


Why did the Sailing boats / Battle ships etc have such a round Bow ??? if you look at the Victory for instance and ships from that era, they all have the round bow... Surely it would of been more economical to have a more straight bow of a ship?  not only would it of made the planking easier but wouldn't it of made the ship a lot faster??


What was the point of having such a blunt nose then..
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raflaunches

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2019, 06:59:32 pm »

I don’t know for sure but from what I’ve seen it was to do with construction and wood strength in particular directions.
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pokherman

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2019, 07:43:59 pm »


Thanks for the reply.. but the amount of twist that was needed to build the bows on these ships. it just amazes me they would be so blunt so to speak..


Maybe it had something to do with space? but then again they still could of just added a sharper bow..  Ive tried to search on the net but cant really think of a way to word the question..
Ian
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Colin Bishop

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2019, 08:00:47 pm »

I don't think any large ships of the period or earlier had a sharp bow. It may simply not have occurred to them. At the relatively low speeds travelled the shape of the bow may not have been critical anyway.
Also, if you look at modern large tankers, they often have very blunt bows too.
Colin
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Mark T

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2019, 08:45:16 pm »

Back then speed was not the critical issue. It was all about displacement or in other words how much you could carry. These ships were all about both man and fire power so a bluff bow gave more storage and more displacement. Well that’s my take on it anyway. Just imagine the amount of stores and ordinance they had to carry it must have been collosal

tobyker

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2019, 09:01:04 pm »

It might be to do with strength and resisting impact. A round bow supported on cant frames would be more damage resistant than a pointed bow and might carry the loads of the bowsprit better. I don't think the designers were stupid - they knew more than we do now what could be done with wood. Remember too, that you don't need a sharp bow to cleave the water - most of it goes underneath the ship.
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tonyH

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 09:38:58 pm »

A bit debateable since the French tended to build 'finer' , as in the shape meaning, hulls but this may only have been for 50gun ships and below?We started to copy them once we'd captured a few examples so it may just be down to habit and a touch of misplaced ego.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 09:48:56 pm »

There was certainly a tendency in those days to stick with what you knew so experimentation would not have been generally welcomed for major war vessels.
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johnv

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 11:40:47 pm »

Hi it's John V we have done this topic before .a blunt bows makes them more stable in water that's my thought anyway  cheers John V
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derekwarner

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 01:02:37 am »


Interestingly, the shape of wooden ships stems back from first recorded times........purely from a nautical consideration, Books from the Old Testament discuss the shape of the historically famous vessel Noah's Ark.........


Do we really know the size of Noah’s Ark, the Ark of the Covenant, the Altar, Goliath, and Solomon’s Temple ?

NB...references above are for Nautical consideration and not of any Religious intent

Derek
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pokherman

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 07:30:47 am »


cheers for you input guys.. certainly brings some different views and considerations for it..


Im going to be taking my farther to the Royal Maritime museum this year, maybe they will have some light on the matter that is factual...


Ian.


Ps... Although I have to say... filling out these Blooming Scammers protection questions is a pain in the Ar++++
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tonyH

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 10:23:31 am »

To add a clinical bit, if you get a chance, read the first few pages of Rees's Naval Architecture from1819-1820 (Reprinted in the 70's ISBN 0 7153 5030 7) which takes you through the design of the ship from, basically, " draw a ftraight line" (Yes, the "f"s are "s" %) ) and a lot of the reasons for the design. It's also got the calculations and drawings of a 74 down to a yacht.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 12:22:24 pm »

I think Mark's comments are correct. The 'wooden walls' evolved from an earlier period when there was not much distinction between warships and merchantmen. Although the warships became specialised they inherited the characteristics of the earlier vessels and did indeed have to carry heavy loads of stores and ordnance plus be able to stay at sea for extended periods without resupply. At their average speeds a bluff bow would have been little handicap and probably improved seaworthiness by giving buoyancy forward.


There have been fine lined speedy warships from ancient times though. The Greek triremes, Roman galleys and in Nelson's times the Galleys and Galleasses used by Mediterramean powers. However all thse were, lightweight, depended on oars and had a very limited radius.

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 03:39:55 pm »

You must have been reading page 11 of Rees's because that's pretty well what was called for in his instructions to the draftsmen of the time, i.e. lift forrard to maintain stability.
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Mark T

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 05:22:50 pm »

Another point that the OP highlighted was the difficulty of planking a bluff bow.  I think that if you look at ship building at that time, the planking was actually one of the easier jobs on a ship.  Just imagine making those huge frames out of many pieces which were spaced very close together.  The real ships had lots of frames which really only made way for the cannon ports.  The job of making the keel must have been just amazing - its such a shame that we don't have photos of that time, so we have to rely on the written word

Colin Bishop

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2019, 06:06:16 pm »

Re Mark's post above. I tool the following pics in 2011 when they were carrying out repairs to Victory's bow. The planking was removed and you can see just how closely the frames were placed.

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 07:26:58 pm »

The keel wasn't a single piece. If you see the sheer plan of a 74gun ship then by the time you add the keel, the false keel, the stem, the stern post etc. you could have 30-40 pieces, scarfe-jointed together.I've added a copy of the estimates amount of timber etc. needed for one of those. You may find it of interest?
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RST

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 08:47:45 pm »

I think you might have to throw-out modern thinking and step back in time a bit.
I am guessing that these ships carried allot of weight onboard considering all the cast iron cannons and stores etc, they needed something fairly buoyant with a high block co-efficient.  Pointy bows were probably not too much concern when youre not going too fast.  You could also question why they had relatively small rudders?  I'm also guessing when the weather was too bad they didn't try and lob too many cannon balls at each other either also?


Things like complicated joinery, compound curves I don't think would have been much of an issue.  They were expert artisans with plenty of wood available.  Probably never thought twice about carving a 99.99% straight plank purely by eye, with hand tools, then bending it backwards, putting a reverse twist and only needing to pinning it in place afterwards.  I'd imagine some of them could even do it blindfold and still get close to an interference fit.  It's a skill not around these days much like folk don't make chronographs by hammering brass sheet flat then hand filing all the cogs.  I'd bet they probably also had enough wood to hand that they didn't have to worry too much if things broke part way through also.  That analogy is a bit like modern naval architecture where compound curves were the norm until about 30 years ago, last 20 years or so, most technology evolves around using 2-D geometry on each individual plate now.

I do think it's interesting when you look at the Dutch, for example, who used to carve clogs from solid wood.  How many period boats from the Netherlands have hulls which look a little bit like a clog?

I only make my comments as someone who studied Nav Architecture, but never technically worked as one since.  Evolution of heavy engineering is a fascinating subject.  I digress but I always remember my late Father (an engineer also) teaching me about how machines evolved, but one thing always eluded us: who made the tools who made the first machine tools that made the first machines?  And how was something like the accuracy of a chronograph even conceievable when the ship itself was still carved from wood!!

Rich

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Mark T

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 08:55:25 pm »

Colin / Tony / Rich - absolutely these ships were solid creations made by the most skilled people of that time.  Just think about how they did this without the digital measurements that we so rely on today.  These were draughtsman, craftsman and mathematicians all at the same time and used what ever material which was available.  I think that the Victory was made of "Nelsons Oaks" which were grown in the forest of dean.  Folklore says that each tree was re-planted but I don't know if this was true.  And all of this doesn't even take into account the structure of the class system that completely ran the navy at the time.  If your unsure about how skilled these people were just study the "lofting process"  Whereby shipwrights took drawings and turned then into a full blown ship and all they had was rulers and pencils - just amazing!

Colin Bishop

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 09:03:53 pm »

I've still been using a ruler and pencil tonight on my latest model...  <:(

Colin

(it was a propelling pencil though...  :-) )
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Taranis

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 09:09:57 pm »

I recently watched a documentary on the OAK tree and it’s life cycle. Absolutely amazing and we still have oaks in Britain over 1000 years of age. An incredible organism that takes it on the chin but has all the necessary defences to cope with the annual onslaught of devourers aside from the changing seasons and the problems they pose.
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Mark T

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 09:55:31 pm »

I've still been using a ruler and pencil tonight on my latest model...  <:(

Colin

(it was a propelling pencil though...  :-) )


You and me Colin - we must be truly skilled  :-))   Mines propelled too  %%

Baldrick

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 09:55:48 pm »

I've still been using a ruler and pencil tonight on my latest model...  <:(

Colin

(it was a propelling pencil though...  :-) )


 I still have my old Hall Harding boxwood imperial engine divided scale rule on my worktop , very useful if you get an itch between the shoulder blades.
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tonyH

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 09:56:10 pm »

And as mathemicians they were happy, if you note the value for the oak in the table, to work to four decimal places!
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RST

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Re: question on the Nelson era sailing ships
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 10:10:55 pm »

I've still been using a ruler and pencil tonight on my latest model...  <:(

Colin

(it was a propelling pencil though...  :-) )

Hi Colin,

I've recently gone back to the old style Stadler 2mm mechanical pencils now I've got a 2mm lead sharpener!  It's like going back 30+ years in time for me when I learned to draw with my Grandads old pencils -now sadly lost.  I'm not old but I was taught how to draw in a style 20-30 years before my age.  My Draughtmen at work were complaining when I was giving sketches for them to work from in CAD.  So I went back to doing hand drawings instead, and everyone else who's seen them since seems to say "nice to see someone who can draw better than our own draughtsmen can!!".

"Lofting process" -absolutely a skill in itself.  Actually somewhat Ironically when I was a nip my parents friends used to babysit me and my younger brother occasionally.  The lady was originally a draughtswoman at one of the yards in Glasgow and would have probably been able to draw a perfect circle freehand or drawn a perfectly straight line on a 20' long length of draughting film without using much in the way of a straight edge.  I was too young at the time to appreciate this of course!

....One thing I note about my old uni course these days though is when we did the course we were taught how to fair a hulls lines manually using battons and iron weights.  It's all progresssed now.  I also learned how to use Autoship at the time for hull drawings and stability -but it's all progressed so much since I am an outsider now.

I am still competent in 2-D cad, but just cannot, not for the want of trying seem to be able to to do 3-D cad and unlock all the benefits, particularly as I want to be able to 3-D print!  I can do a rendered 3-D sketch by hand though!

It's all progress and change.

Rich
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