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Author Topic: Anchor Rope size?  (Read 1361 times)

tonyH

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Anchor Rope size?
« on: March 21, 2019, 04:35:05 PM »

Good Afternoon All!
I've seen various thicknesses of anchor rope and chain used on models. Some look right and some look wrong. I'm finishing off a 63ft torpedo boat of 1880's and while the first section of anchor chain looks right I wonder if there are any rules?Displacement is 15tons.Tables for modern rope suggest 1" but I presume that this is a bit thin for the Victorians.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Tony
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derekwarner

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 10:09:37 PM »

Yes Tony, by modern day tables, 1" diameter synthetic rope lines up for the 15 ton displacement you mention.....


Our [Australian] infant Naval Defence Forces has the Second Class and the Acheron Class [J Thornycroft design] single 14" diameter torpedo boats


Weight minimization in these craft would have been paramount so I can visualize a simple wire kellec type anchor?? 


Image below is of a British Defender Class torpedo boat which fits the age/size/displacement criteria....[I suspect in the Builders hands as they look a scruffy lot]


Alas, the anchor appears to be deployed....these Classes of vessels would have been rarely moored by anchor ...so this gives weight to the primitive type of lightweight kellec type anchor


Derek
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Derek Warner

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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2019, 10:23:52 AM »

Thanks Derek, the anchor was a what appears to be a standard admiralty pattern (See photo of NMM model) but there's no chain or rope apparent so would Victorian rope be 50% bigger - 100% bigger etc?
As far as dress was concerned, contemporary reports suggest that there was a fair degree of latitude, especially since torpedos were considered the work of the devil and those associated with them were beyond redemption! (ee other photo)
Just as an aside, required reading is "Torpedoes and Torpedo-Vessels" by Lieutenant Sir G.E.Armstrong (Late RN) 1896 edition!. It's available from Abe Books for just a few pounds!
Tony


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derekwarner

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2019, 11:06:23 AM »

That image TB2 of a model is certainly a complicated build......Port side the AFT Davit appears to be mounted in the vessel deck, the FWD Davit arm appears to be mounted on the wharf  :o ....same applies to the Stdb side


The other life image clearly shows the torpedo is stored within the Plane envelope of the deck


There are also a great many variations of build.....I am sure the readings by Armstrong would be interesting


Rope pulleys are shown as the method of both securing and moving the torpedoes to the drop position.....does the text mention the rope  sizing or specification?.....if so from there you may be able to understand some sort of comparison between sizes


Derek
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John W E

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2019, 11:12:02 AM »


Hi Tony
This is from the book of  Manual of Seamanship 1937 and it may give you a some   indication of how thick the cables where 


I suspect that in that time the anchor cable where made from steel rather than hemp rope


john
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Netleyned

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2019, 12:15:40 PM »

These are chain link sizes, not rope.
Ned
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John W E

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2019, 12:24:10 PM »



Ned
 I was trying to put it in a nice way that a anchor on a ship of that size will use chain  not rope to hold the ship at anchor
john
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2019, 01:18:50 PM »

Are you certain of that John? The original post suggests that a combination of chain and warp was used like modern recreational vessels of a similar size. These boats only weighed 15 tons or so and would have only carried lightweight ground tackle. Not good to have a lot of heavy chain in a locker right forward.


Colin
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Netleyned

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2019, 02:41:15 PM »

Only the ground tackle laid out on the sea bed holds
a vessel in place. One shackle of chain with an anchor to hold it from dragging and then rope to the surface has been used on most boats up to 20 ton
Chain running down from the surface doesn't have
much effect apart from holding the bow down.
Ned
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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2019, 04:23:34 PM »

I'd assumed a mix of stud-chain and best quality hemp. I'd assumed also that the strength of chain would be fairly constant over a number of years so current quality + or- 10% would be about right.
That said, the info from you John will be rather useful for Project X in the planning stage :-))
As to the rest of the mooring, it's the question of whether 1", 1.25", 1.5" etc diameter would be believable for the period and does it really matter since indications are that the early boats really had to scrounge whatever they could from the cannon lovers!
Unfortunately, I've got two options for storing the rope in that (a) the oval bucket on the model could hold the thinner ones or (b) the plan shows a hatch right at the pointy end of the actual vessel which could lead to a chain locker if the heavier thickness was correct.
As far as the lines for the torpedoes is concerned, Derek, this particular boat was an odd one with a pair of MkIII impulse tubes (the ones with a piston that pushed the fish out) and no reloads.
Just to give an indication of how TB's were considered...
"In 1884 matters stood as follows. Russia possessed no fewer than 115 boats, France 50, Holland 22, Itay 18, Austria 17 and England 19. This meant that Russia possessed one boat for every 18 miles of coastline, France one boat for every 33 miles and England One for for every 197 miles, or, including the colonies, every 800 miles!Plus ca change! %)
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John W E

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2019, 04:55:54 PM »


Tony, hi there, the book I took a photocopy from is an 'old Seaman's manuals' it belonged to a relation of mine.  It is a wealth of information - there is a lot more information in there about anchors/anchor ropes and so forth and this book - you can find similar books on Ebay and I would strongly recommend it, because there is some brilliant reading it - the sailors of the past must have been a hard bunch.


john
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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2019, 01:57:31 PM »

Hi John,


Are the books generally from a single publisher or source such as an early version of HMSO?


I'm just thinking about doing a search on Abe Books and the tighter I can get it the better!


Thanks again for the idea.


Tony
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John W E

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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2019, 10:08:05 PM »

I think I'll try to aim earlier than 1937. There's a 1911 copy on Abe at the moment and several copies of the 1915 war issue so I may have to make the investment. That said, some of them are downloadable so I'll keep searching!The research often gives some of the best fun in this hobby of ours :-))
Cheers,
Tony
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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2019, 04:30:48 PM »

Just done some checking and the earliest issue of the Manual was 1908. Any ideas what, if anything, came before this?
Tony
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John W E

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2019, 04:39:39 PM »

hi there Tony to be honest with ya, I have no idea, but, I would imagine there should be some form of seamans manual - I think the best place would be to enquire as the Greenwich maritime museum - they are the best possible people to come up with an answer to that I think.   Are you going to bid on the one on Ebay? that's the only thing I can think of at the moment  :-))
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Netleyned

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2019, 04:54:49 PM »

The seaman's Bible when I was in the Andrew., 59 to 83 was the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship. Quite a hefty tome. I think it was updated quite often.
Ned
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John W E

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2019, 05:53:37 PM »


hi ya Tony
I know this is slightly off track, but, after doing a little bit of research of the year 1908 just in general - some weird things are unearthed :-)  One of the interesting things I came across was this little plan - could be quite interesting for a future build for someone :-)



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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2019, 07:50:30 PM »

Hi John,
That's a natty little boat. At 60ft it's the sort that would have suited being carried on HMS Vulcan but appears to be about 20 years later than her.As far as The Manual is concerned, the 1908 is the earliest in the Caird Library at the NMM.
I've looked on line and the 1908 is downloadable for zero pennies so I'm just trying to assess whether any of the sites are trustworthy enough! Updates started in 1911 then there was a WW1 update for 1915.
 :-))
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John W E

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2019, 07:28:02 AM »


hi ya Tony

My personal thoughts are the further we go back past 1908 looking for Seamanship Manuals for the common seaman is going to be very difficult because if we look at history in the general frame of things, we see around about 1800's education for the common man was limited - for those who could read, write and do arithmetic.  Although schools were there a lot of seaman still couldn't read and write until the First World War.  So what would the point be of supplying a book for the common seaman.  Officers and gentry are a different matter - that is where I think we will find more information.    We will have to start looking at books that were aimed at this sort of gentry - so - possibly that is where the most info will be from.   If we think of the common sailor in the Royal Navy - in the early centuries, he wasn't expected to be educated - he was there to carry out orders to the best of his ability.   Could turn out to be an interesting subject this one - off to do some more research :-) busy looking at plans for HMS Kent now  :} possibly next build.



https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10036/109573/CavellS.pdf?sequence=1

John
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tonyH

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2019, 02:00:42 PM »

Hi John,
I think you're being a bit damning of the education of sailors and the limited expectations!
The earliest manual I can find at NMM is "The boy's manual of seamanship and gunnery", compiled for the use of the training ships of the Royal Navy from 1869. This implies that there was an improvement in the education regime from the middle of the 19th century at the latest and government issue publications came into the equation.
If you google the book title you can download the whole thing for nowt and it's definitely for the crew (See p 267 for truck-gun exercise).Which Kent?CheersTony :-))

PS. Perhaps we need El Supremo Martin to move this thread to one on training and education of sailors :embarrassed:
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Geoff

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Re: Anchor Rope size?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2019, 01:57:34 PM »

As an observation when accurate ships books talk about hemp rope they may say 14" this is not the diameter but the circumference which is how hemp rope was measured, certainly in Nelson's day. I suspect this practice may well have been carried over once we get to the "wire rope" days but candidly I'm not certain.


Interesting question though


Cheers


Geoff
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