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[frogman3]

HI all well tiger is now up to scratch an now ready for her next sail to see if i have anymore eletric probs so fingers crossed but got to wait till new yr so to sail at norwich pond if poss 
AN A HAPPY CHRITMAS TO YOU ALL
FROM JEN AN I
chrisb

[T888]

Hi Chris


Please you got Tiger ready for her next sail, will be awaiting photos and video 


Have a happy Christmas

[frogman3]

Hi Chris


Please you got Tiger ready for her next sail, will be awaiting photos and video 


Have a happy Christmas

HI Dave cheers
an yes im lookin forward to her havin a new years sail but i wonder if anyone can tell me where i can get a heavy duty power distrobuition board as i think that may be my problem as all the wires in the front section goin through a PDB have no problems just the motor wires an there is not a PDB  FITTED there so if i can get one i will fit it in an see what happens an sorry Dave cant do video
CHEERS ALL
chrisb

[HMS Invisible]

HI Dave cheers
an yes im lookin forward to her havin a new years sail but i wonder if anyone can tell me where i can get a heavy duty power distrobuition board as i think that may be my problem as all the wires in the front section goin through a PDB have no problems just the motor wires an there is not a PDB  FITTED there so if i can get one i will fit it in an see what happens an sorry Dave cant do video
CHEERS ALL
chrisb

This four gang opto isolater will require minor modification to work. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273038938262
Mtroniks will offer a working drop-in solution with probably three singles at many times its £5 cost.
It would break the dashed-line fault current path in my diagram if you limit the removable red jumper links to one in number.
That dashed line is a noisy motor current that leaks into the brown -ve signal wiring to upset the Mtroniks escs and melted the low temperature pvc brown/red/orange ribbon in th next escs.
  The longer you make the battery wires, or the more escs and negative wire paths you add,  or more jumper connections you plug in beyond a single, the lower the relative back-door path resistance to motor current in the brown signal wires. A power distribution board worsens this effect by adding resistance in the supply negative.

You'll possibly get offers and recommendations for power distribution  boards as a solution for erratic behaviour  but it won't work.

In the meantime, as a diagnostic proof test, if you disconnect three escs at the receiver you will find the remaining connected esc will work perfectly. You will find all four escs work in isolation but the problems you had in the past only show when you have a path for an unwanted dashed-line motor current in the signal wires.

[frogman3]

This four gang opto isolater will require minor modification to work. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273038938262
Mtroniks will offer a working drop-in solution with probably three singles at many times its £5 cost.
It would break the dashed-line fault current path in my diagram if you limit the removable red jumper links to one in number.
That dashed line is a noisy motor current that leaks into the brown -ve signal wiring to upset the Mtroniks escs and melted the low temperature pvc brown/red/orange ribbon in th next escs.
  The longer you make the battery wires, or the more escs and negative wire paths you add,  or more jumper connections you plug in beyond a single, the lower the relative back-door path resistance to motor current in the brown signal wires. A power distribution board worsens this effect by adding resistance in the supply negative.

You'll possibly get offers and recommendations for power distribution  boards as a solution for erratic behaviour  but it won't work.

In the meantime, as a diagnostic proof test, if you disconnect three escs at the receiver you will find the remaining connected esc will work perfectly. You will find all four escs work in isolation but the problems you had in the past only show when you have a path for an unwanted dashed-line motor current in the signal wires.

HI There well TBH i dont really understand what you are sayin about this gizmo an i have not got Mtroniks esc's in her now  but many thank for you tryin to exsplain sir as im not that good on eletronics
but cheers for you takin the time to try an exsplain
CHEERs
Chrisb

[Rob47]

Happy  ew Year Chris, hope it works this time.  Thinking about my approach and why I have not issues,everything on my boats is 12 volt or servo 12v through a cheap simple fuse box, LED are through a board that can cope with masses of led with output having its own resistor and dimmer,  Stll hope you find the solution.bob

[frogman3]

Happy  ew Year Chris, hope it works this time.  Thinking about my approach and why I have not issues,everything on my boats is 12 volt or servo 12v through a cheap simple fuse box, LED are through a board that can cope with masses of led with output having its own resistor and dimmer,  Stll hope you find the solution.bob
[/qu
ote]


HI BOB an happy new year to you too an so do i roll on summer so i can take tiger for another sail
ATB TO YOU SIR
chrisb

[HMS Invisible]

HI There well TBH i dont really understand what you are sayin about this gizmo an i have not got Mtroniks esc's in her now  but many thank for you tryin to exsplain sir as im not that good on eletronics
but cheers for you takin the time to try an explain
CHEERs
Chrisb

I posted in October where you progressed to two 480a fan-cooled Chinese escs. Here: Link

In there, you asked why the pvc insulation of the brown/red/yellow of both escs melted so I appended a 12 year old gif titled loop_current with the fault current path marked in dashes and arrows.
I followed up with a list of four asterisk highlighted options to prevent a recurrance.

If you now lengthen the battery wires and add a P.D.B. with screw terminals go further with two more escs my 5% calculation of motor current coursing through the brown coloured Rx wire is more like 15%.
That's okay with four 555 motors on 18-24 volt but not the motors you chose.

If you scratch out the possibility of using 555 motors and add a screw terminal P.DB. I would elevate one of the two remaining remedial measures (optoisolation or propulsion batteries for each esc) to an essential measure to prevent one or more escs biting the dust.
 
Mtroniks sell a single channel optoisolator for £10 and you'd possibly get it from shops and Ebay. It will work for any brand of esc .
I suggest you:-
1) unhook two of the four escs
2) buy the optoisolator with the jazzy glitch buster name and £10 price
3) use an Rx pack so you don't need two of the above
4) trust me when I say the Mtroniks, Chinese 480 will handle the current of two 775 and the flashing leds and melty wire problems were down to motor current in your Rx wires.

Proof test.
If your boat goes batshit crazy or the Rx wires melt but don't smoke & fuse. Stop!
Unplug all but one of the esc-to-Rx plugs.
If each esc works this way but the problem comes back when you plug in the other escs or switching bec then you know your £10-per-esc optoisolator will permanently solve the issue. So will one battery per esc.

[frogman3]

I posted in October where you progressed to two 480a fan-cooled Chinese escs. Here: Link

In there, you asked why the pvc insulation of the brown/red/yellow of both escs melted so I appended a 12 year old gif titled loop_current with the fault current path marked in dashes and arrows.
I followed up with a list of four asterisk highlighted options to prevent a recurrance.

If you now lengthen the battery wires and add a P.D.B. with screw terminals go further with two more escs my 5% calculation of motor current coursing through the brown coloured Rx wire is more like 15%.
That's okay with four 555 motors on 18-24 volt but not the motors you chose.

If you scratch out the possibility of using 555 motors and add a screw terminal P.DB. I would elevate one of the two remaining remedial measures (optoisolation or propulsion batteries for each esc) to an essential measure to prevent one or more escs biting the dust.
 
Mtroniks sell a single channel optoisolator for £10 and you'd possibly get it from shops and Ebay. It will work for any brand of esc .
I suggest you:-
1) unhook two of the four escs
2) buy the optoisolator with the jazzy glitch buster name and £10 price
3) use an Rx pack so you don't need two of the above
4) trust me when I say the Mtroniks, Chinese 480 will handle the current of two 775 and the flashing leds and melty wire problems were down to motor current in your Rx wires.

Proof test.
If your boat goes batshit crazy or the Rx wires melt but don't smoke & fuse. Stop!
Unplug all but one of the esc-to-Rx plugs.
If each esc works this way but the problem comes back when you plug in the other escs or switching bec then you know your £10-per-esc optoisolator will permanently solve the issue. So will one battery per esc.

HI There many thanks for your info BUT to be honest i dont understand as im not as good as you on eletronics im afraid so im just goin to try my idea out in the summer an see how things go as in the 30 odd yrs ive built these big ships with eletronise ESC in ive never had these probs only since ive gone onto this BECC system
cheers for your help maybe i should not be building these  complex
model but this is proberly the last ship anyway as gettin to old now 


ATB TO YOU SIR
chrisb

[HMS Invisible]

I hope all goes well Chris but I think there is a very high chance that you are going to needlessly lose an esc.
 Single strands from multi-strand wire for diy fuses or 0.5 amp 16v resettable polyfuses in the negative wires of the 3-way plugs to each esc will not do the job of optoisolators. They are another chore but would insure against loss of £50, however.

To anyone else:
 using a distribution board, look at my loop_current gif diagram to see the dashed line where the full motor current goes if one of the negative esc to battery screw connections goes high resistance or works loose. It takes out an internal esc track or the negative wire to receiver in a split second.

Optical computer mice contain optocouplers but component parts and resistors can be bought for a few pennies. You can glue such simple circuits to varnished plywood and get circuit suggestions from youtube.

 I incorporated onboard optocoupled links in my sub products for the simple reason that they are needed where power devices share a main battery then feed a negative connection from the battery cathode back to the receiver. I put the warnings and safety steps to share batteries on the esc instruction sheets.
Electronize didn't write their instruction sheet warning for no reason, Mtroniks didn't later sell stand alone optocouplers for decoration and Robbe and Engel Modellbau didn't put multiple batteries, servo-operated microswitches or relay boards without a reason. Such suppliers would be negligent if they didn't take these steps.

There is no such responsibility or consequences for the end users who build there own models. That's what to consider when following in the footsteps of others. You may miss key details.

[frogman3]

I hope all goes well Chris but I think there is a very high chance that you are going to needlessly lose an esc.
 Single strands from multi-strand wire for diy fuses or 0.5 amp 16v resettable polyfuses in the negative wires of the 3-way plugs to each esc will not do the job of optoisolators. They are another chore but would insure against loss of £50, however.

To anyone else:
 using a distribution board, look at my loop_current gif diagram to see the dashed line where the full motor current goes if one of the negative esc to battery screw connections goes high resistance or works loose. It takes out an internal esc track or the negative wire to receiver in a split second.

Optical computer mice contain optocouplers but component parts and resistors can be bought for a few pennies. You can glue such simple circuits to varnished plywood and get circuit suggestions from youtube.

 I incorporated onboard optocoupled links in my sub products for the simple reason that they are needed where power devices share a main battery then feed a negative connection from the battery cathode back to the receiver. I put the warnings and safety steps to share batteries on the esc instruction sheets.
Electronize didn't write their instruction sheet warning for no reason, Mtroniks didn't later sell stand alone optocouplers for decoration and Robbe and Engel Modellbau didn't put multiple batteries, servo-operated microswitches or relay boards without a reason. Such suppliers would be negligent if they didn't take these steps.

There is no such responsibility or consequences for the end users who build there own models. That's what to consider when following in the footsteps of others. You may miss key details.

HI There sir so from wha i can gather you are sayin id be better off buyin an fittin in a 4 way optoisolators ?  so could you please draw a diogram on how i would go about fittin one in  do i do away with my 4way fuse box an fit that [/size]optoisolators in its place ? that then feeds the ESC 's ? many thanks for info if you can sir
[/size]chrisb

[HMS Invisible]

I'd be glad to do a diagram because it should make the whole subject clearer. A diagram is not going to appear by today's end, even if it is a photo of a hand drawn sketch.
I had the intention, but not the workspace to produce a small batch last summer. Some for myself and some for a local Mayhem member.  I already have surplus component parts from years ago. From memory, a four pin TLP121 was costing less than 5p at 1,000+ qty. A home made Rx to ESC interface would be terminated with male & female servo connectors rather than screw terminals.
I'll try posting a photo or two by Thursday morning. It could happen Thursday evening.

The opto project wouldn't replace main power fuses which are essential in my opinion. If space is a problem, blade fuses can be replaced by tin-plated copper wire or in line cylindrical fuses. Those are items I used to give away like sweets with esc orders along with 47nF disc capacitors & polyswitches. Main power switches are the redudant & trouble prone things to abandon.

[frogman3]

I'd be glad to do a diagram because it should make the whole subject clearer. A diagram is not going to appear by today's end, even if it is a photo of a hand drawn sketch.
I had the intention, but not the workspace to produce a small batch last summer. Some for myself and some for a local Mayhem member.  I already have surplus component parts from years ago. From memory, a four pin TLP121 was costing less than 5p at 1,000+ qty. A home made Rx to ESC interface would be terminated with male & female servo connectors rather than screw terminals.
I'll try posting a photo or two by Thursday morning. It could happen Thursday evening.

The opto project wouldn't replace main power fuses which are essential in my opinion. If space is a problem, blade fuses can be replaced by tin-plated copper wire or in line cylindrical fuses. Those are items I used to give away like sweets with esc orders along with 47nF disc capacitors & polyswitches. Main power switches are the redudant & trouble prone things to abandon.

OK Sir many thanks hope i can understand your diogram to try an sort my probs out on tiger as in all my big ship models ive never had this prob before untill i was forced lnto fittin this becc system

[frogman3]

I'd be glad to do a diagram because it should make the whole subject clearer. A diagram is not going to appear by today's end, even if it is a photo of a hand drawn sketch.
I had the intention, but not the workspace to produce a small batch last summer. Some for myself and some for a local Mayhem member.  I already have surplus component parts from years ago. From memory, a four pin TLP121 was costing less than 5p at 1,000+ qty. A home made Rx to ESC interface would be terminated with male & female servo connectors rather than screw terminals.
I'll try posting a photo or two by Thursday morning. It could happen Thursday evening.

The opto project wouldn't replace main power fuses which are essential in my opinion. If space is a problem, blade fuses can be replaced by tin-plated copper wire or in line cylindrical fuses. Those are items I used to give away like sweets with esc orders along with 47nF disc capacitors & polyswitches. Main power switches are the redudant & trouble prone things to abandon.

HI Invisible any chance on that diogram then ? an please make it simple sir 
chrisb

[HMS Invisible]

The easiest to digest would have been a photo with a unit soldered together.
The diagram below will do for those who dabble in electronics.
I don't have a permanent work area set up to solder but I'm sure I can make single coupler units & photograph it by tomorrow. That's what you need short of a complete item.

The lowest component solution using my component inventory that I would be satisfied with would be one servo extension cable with an optocoupler & three resistors per channel.
The aim is to leave the recommended single connection from 12v battery -ve to the -ve rail of your receiver.

For the electronic nerds:-
........................
TLP521 datasheet

There is no need for a pcboard using resistors. Single coupler leads could be soldered, potted and heatshrunk as an optoisolated extension lead.
G indicates it has 100% to 600% ctr.
R1 and R2 can be chosen to suit the ctr

[frogman3]

The easiest to digest would have been a photo with a unit soldered together.
The diagram below will do for those who dabble in electronics.
I don't have a permanent work area set up to solder but I'm sure I can make single coupler units & photograph it by tomorrow. That's what you need short of a complete item.

The lowest component solution using my component inventory that I would be satisfied with would be one servo extension cable with an optocoupler & three resistors per channel.
The aim is to leave the recommended single connection from 12v battery -ve to the -ve rail of your receiver.

For the electronic nerds:-
........................
TLP521 datasheet

There is no need for a pcboard using resistors. Single coupler leads could be soldered, potted and heatshrunk as an optoisolated extension lead.
G indicates it has 100% to 600% ctr.
R1 and R2 can be chosen to suit the ctr

cheers sir

[HMS Invisible]

...There is no need for a pcboard using resistors. Single coupler leads could be soldered, potted and heatshrunk as an optoisolated extension lead.
G indicates it has 100% to 600% ctr.
R1 and R2 can be chosen to suit the ctr

Hot glue chips in heatshrink insulation works for sealing soldered cables but it wasn't optimal in the first attempt.
There are three wire ended 1/8 watt resistors and repeat flexing will damage the components or solder joints.





I'll encase others I made in glass microstrands in epoxy & possibly supported in 1/4" wide, 1/32" thick epoxy fibre board. All this was to avoid the use of copper clad and punched  veroboard & surface mount components.
For the DIY minded people I would recommend buying the PC817 modules from Ebay then adapt with a dremel or Stanley knife to replicate the circuit I sketched in the prior post.
......................
I'll take any further discussion  to the Electrics & Electronics section if optoisolation of interest to anyone.

[frogman3]

Hot glue chips in heatshrink insulation works for sealing soldered cables but it wasn't optimal in the first attempt.
There are three wire ended 1/8 watt resistors and repeat flexing will damage the components or solder joints.





I'll encase others I made in glass microstrands in epoxy & possibly supported in 1/4" wide, 1/32" thick epoxy fibre board. All this was to avoid the use of copper clad and punched  veroboard & surface mount components.
For the DIY minded people I would recommend buying the PC817 modules from Ebay then adapt with a dremel or Stanley knife to replicate the circuit I sketched in the prior post.
......................
I'll take any further discussion  to the Electrics & Electronics section if optoisolation of interest to anyone.

HI INVISABLE
well im sorry to say that what you have posted in your diograms is beyond  me but thank you for tryin as ive looked up on ebay for this [/size]optoisolated an there are sevarl on there an i dont know which one to get or how to wire it into the circut between the fuse box an the ESC 's  sorry as im not that good on eletronics but if you could exsplain it a bit more in the eletronics section an please a simple layout of where this board fits in the circuts thanks sir AN WILL IT FIX MY PROBLEM ?
[/size]CHRISB

[T888]

HMS Invincible,

Am I correct in ready what you posted is for Chris to make four of the units in your diagram and install them between the receiver and each of the ESC ?

Also am I correct in what that your saying, these will protect from power surge in the wiring, therefore protecting each ESC, apposed to using fuses ? 

[HMS Invisible]

I wanted to avoid drawing this out on the HMS Tiger thread.
I'll answer individually starting with the easiest that won't require caffeine.

HMS Invincible,

Am I correct in ready what you posted is for Chris to make four of the units in your diagram and install them between the receiver and each of the ESC ?

I completed one exactly as per my hand drawn diagram, plus eight more requiring potting after a connector & test for each of them. I also wanted to draw vero stripboard layout and drilled ply diagrams before making a thread about what the circuit does.

Also am I correct in what that your saying, these will protect from power surge in the wiring, therefore protecting each ESC, apposed to using fuses ?  [/size]

Opposed to as in the optocoupler leads will make the the arrangement work reliably and safely while the fuse will inevitably rupture, save the escs but act as a wake up call.
Give me until 6pm. I need do do a diagram but also have a coffee and deal this guy who's batted back ten Whatsapp messages about his broken ebike and now phoning.

[HMS Invisible]

T888, I've redrawn the diagram that shows the unwanted motor current leaking onto signal wires as three (3) amp.
That's the current that upset the signal inputs to Chris's Mtroniks escs & heated the brown wire of the Chinese escs & melted the pvc insulation.


Anticipating the question: Why the 27:3 split in the case of the diagram?
Answer: Because the short fat black wire from the left esc to the Y-split has a parallel path of two brown wires + the right hand esc at nine times the resistance.

Solutions: keep strictly to one battery to receiver -ve connection with opto leads, or more batteries, or low current motors.
.....................
Chris, it looks like you have a choice between what I have, and can supply at post cost, or adapt the Arduino ones with a dremel or scalpel after taking better photos than Ebay or finding a confident diy electronic enthusiast. I know the Arduino ones can be made to work but I can't say what needs done because I decided not to buy one.
I was going to get a Mayhem member to independently demo ( including blown fuse or polyswitch) but his club took a weather break yesterday. I can post out on Monday.
ADDENDUM
This image shows a single optocoupler lead in situ where there are two escs and no external ubec.

The second connection from battery -ve to receiver -ve rail is broken so motor current is kept out of the signal wiring.
The Arduino couplers need slight modification by cutting tracks and soldering because they are wired to invert the signal where rc application needs a non-inverted coupler. There is discussion of this in this forum.

[frogman3]

T888, I've redrawn the diagram that shows the unwanted motor current leaking onto signal wires as three (3) amp.
That's the current that upset the signal inputs to Chris's Mtroniks escs & heated the brown wire of the Chinese escs & melted the pvc insulation.


Anticipating the question: Why the 27:3 split in the case of the diagram?
Answer: Because the short fat black wire from the left esc to the Y-split has a parallel path of two brown wires + the right hand esc at nine times the resistance.

Solutions: keep strictly to one battery to receiver -ve connection with opto leads, or more batteries, or low current motors.
.....................
Chris, it looks like you have a choice between what I have, and can supply at post cost, or adapt the Arduino ones with a dremel or scalpel after taking better photos than Ebay or finding a confident diy electronic enthusiast. I know the Arduino ones can be made to work but I can't say what needs done because I decided not to buy one.
I was going to get a Mayhem member to independently demo ( including blown fuse or polyswitch) but his club took a weather break yesterday. I can post out on Monday.
ADDENDUM
This image shows a single optocoupler lead in situ where there are two escs and no external ubec.

The second connection from battery -ve to receiver -ve rail is broken so motor current is kept out of the signal wiring.
The Arduino couplers need slight modification by cutting tracks and soldering because they are wired to invert the signal where rc application needs a non-inverted coupler. There is discussion of this in this forum.

HI again invisable oh  many many many   thanks for you sir to go to all the trouble drawin this all out i cant thank you enough but i can understand some bits of you diogram but not enough to wire this in im afraid but i have a freind who is good at eletronics an he says give me a while to look at what you sir are sayin in your diograms an he will then hopefully exsplain it in a more easy way for me to understand so till i hear from him i'll leave it at that but thank you sir
chrisb

[HMS Invisible]

I've made up enough leads and the chap they were initially made for is eying up a dual mixable esc which isn't going to need them. Four could be yours for cost of posting


Bear in mind is not just what I'm saying. Robbie, Engel, OTW, Mtroniks, Electronize all address the potential issue. It's very real in your case with high current motors and now with four escs. An electronics hobbyist should have no trouble adapting the four way Ebay modules for non-inverting use and be able to digest the diagrams and Electronize warning in no more than two seconds.

[frogman3]

I've made up enough leads and the chap they were initially made for is eying up a dual mixable esc which isn't going to need them. Four could be yours for cost of posting


Bear in mind is not just what I'm saying. Robbie, Engel, OTW, Mtroniks, Electronize all address the potential issue. It's very real in your case with high current motors and now with four escs. An electronics hobbyist should have no trouble adapting the four way Ebay modules for non-inverting use and be able to digest the diagrams and Electronize warning in no more than two seconds.

OK SIR whats the cost of postage ? an how can i pay you ? an will i still have to buy from ebay this  [/size]optocoupler ? an which one please can you advise me on this sir ?  an when you send these leads could you please put in a compleate wirein diagram for me thats simple to understand ?
[/size]thank you sir
[/size]chris

[T888]

HMS Invisible,


Thanks for the update diagrams, just to confirm if Chris take up your offer for the units, he would not require to purchase the eBay unit ?




Thanks and Chris sorry to post on Tiger thread but I think it will help you in the end.