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Author Topic: How would you define "fast electric"?  (Read 1362 times)

clockworks

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How would you define "fast electric"?
« on: July 01, 2019, 11:10:45 am »

This came up at our AGM yesterday - the club rules say "no fast electric or IC boats", but nobody actually knew what "fast electric" really meant.


Most of the members either sail, or run scale or semi-scale electric, so it hasn't really come up before. However, another local club is having issues with a couple of members trying to out-do each other with faster and faster boats, and challenging each other to races. This might well end with the club being banned from using their lake.


It was also raised by another member who has young relatives who would like to run a boat, and feels that they won't be interested in just pottering about like the rest of us. They would want to go fast.


Another member suggested that anything running LiPo and brushless should be banned, as that's what "fast electric" boats run. i pointed out that not all brushless boats were that fast.


My personal opinion is that "fast electric" means a boat that uses a surface drive prop, and just skims the water "on the plane". Even then a small planing boat doesn't need to be going very quickly to get up on the plane, and low weight means minimal damage to wildlife or other boats if the worst happens.


How do other clubs deal with this?
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Bob K

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2019, 11:20:39 am »

At our club, after non members causing a nuisance amongst the wild life, and after arbitration with the lake Rangers, we have come to a compromise.

To be allowed a "faster" boat must be scale, detailed model of an actual ship, and travelling at a speed approximating the scale speed of what the original boat would have travelled at.

Therefore scale MTB's or lifeboats are OK so long as they do not go appreciably faster than scale speed of the original.

Good compromise.  The authorities are happy and of course we keep well clear of the wild life.
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chas

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2019, 11:27:06 am »

Blimey, that's a can of worms to open. Common sense should be the rule, a model solely made to go fast is a fast electric, an rttl, MTB of similar going around scale speed is fine. A little leeway on the top speed maybe, but no one taking the mickey.
 Banning brush less is downright silly, they're just more efficient motors, similar for lipo batteries.
Just my opinion.
Chas

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roycv

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 11:39:25 am »

I think the problem with fast boats and new drivers is that the driver knows where the boat is but not necessarily where it is going!  If you have to clear the lake for racing it does rather suggest that drivers do not want to be responsible for any other models on the water.
Having said that there is a fascination in watching especially scale like models in an all out tussel to win a race.  The techniques involved are different from operating a slower boat and most times the water is so churned up it is not practical proposition to mix them.
Noise is probably the deciding factor as to whether it upsets nearby houses or people out for a quiet walk in the park.  Banning them is not an issue so much as an agreed co-existence.  We all like a bit of fun be it in the fast lane or the slow.
Regards
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 11:51:16 am »

Size comes into this as well. Whilst fast one of those  20cm+  rtr models is unlikely to cause that much of a problem whilst a 1 metre boat of the same type is a whole different matter.
A couple of large planing models - be they racers, MTB's or anything else - can create the most awful chop on a hard edge pond.
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clockworks

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 11:53:47 am »

Scale speed is a good starting point.


I agree about brushless. I've almost finished building a springer tug with 2s LiPo and a low-Kv brushless motor. Even if the motor turns out to be a bit too "fast", the hull shape means it won't go very fast before it becomes a submarine.
I think the issue with some people branding brushless as "fast" is because they are pretty traditional in their outlook, maybe even scared of trying something "new".


I think the real problem going forward is the "made to go fast" thing.
A youngster wanting to "have a go" at model boats will probably turn up with a ready to run power boat, because they are cheap and readily available.
Do we let them join, and risk them chasing the ducks and swans all over the lake?
We can't ban them from the lake, as it's public.


The hobby needs new, younger, members, so we don't want to discourage anyone from trying it, but we don't want accidents or the risk of being banned from the lake.
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 12:01:42 pm »

I could observe that a very small boat racing along is probably actually going no quicker than a much larger boat at "scale" speed.
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justboatonic

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 01:09:09 pm »

Being brushless or lipo powered doesnt mean such a boat will be any faster than a nitro powered one or, brushed motor powered by nimh packs. Ive seen Club 500 boats going at 'fast' speed.
But, when you get members 'racing' or trying to go faster than the other, that, surely is the definition of 'fast'? It's the racing element or trying to be fastest that is the crux.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 01:11:08 pm »

In modelling circles 'fast electric' has usually meant racing boats.

If we are talking about the effect on the environment and safety considerations then the nature of the water will probably determine maximum permitted speed. IC boats are usually banned on the basis of a combination of noise and speed but it's not so obvious with semi scale electrics as it is now possible to equip them with power plants which deliver more power than they can cope with which does to some extent act as a speed limiter!

Actually measuring speed can be difficult at an average meeting and it isn't just speed that is the problem if the drivers are playing silly b****rs as well.

The risk is to other boats and to the local wildlife and it may simply come down to somebody, either a club official or an external authority such as a park ranger making a judgement call on what is and isn't too fast. Banning LiPos or brushless motors doesn't address the root cause of the problem which is unsocial behaviour by individuals. No point in penalising the law abiding many for the sins of the few who need to be informed of the error of their ways and if they don't respond have their club membership suspended or reported to an appropriate external authority.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 01:16:51 pm »

Interesting...


I suppose you could compare fast electrics to the same kind of IC boat that isn’t allowed to be run at your lake. So you could say that surface skimming or mono hull racers IC boats are banned from your lake and a fast electric which has similar characteristics should be the same.


At Wicksteed we can’t have IC boats and we have a sign up saying that irresponsible use of fast Boats is frowned upon. Luckily our lake is suitably large enough to allow ‘faster boats’ to operate at one end and allow other models to sail. But our chairman has asked people to remove their boat in the past when they exceeded social acceptability when sailing with others.


Martyn Chorlton asked if he could use our lake to test the Angry Shark fast electric (see Model Boats magazine a few months back) and we made sure the lake was clear for its use. When operated at full speed it wasn’t really acceptable to sail it on the lake with other models, unless they were of similar type. Considering our lake is 90 m long it couldn’t achieve its full speed for a sustained distance. If I saw a boat like it coming down to our lake the owner would be asked not to run it when the club are sailing.
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chas

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2019, 01:21:36 pm »

Looking at an issue like this through a modelers eyes can be missleading. It"s true that a big heavy quickly moving tug had a greater potential for damage than a small rtr fast electric, but an outsider would judge it differently. They would equate fast models with unsuitable behaviour, no matter how wrong and unfair that is.  If it comes down to what is needed to keep using the water, then someone has to bite the bullet and accept that accept what rules are imposed.
 Maybe letting the rangers come and try for themselves would be a good idea, a bit of extra education might help.
chas
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Colin Bishop

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2019, 01:42:57 pm »

I think that Nick's response above shows that the potential problems can be suitably managed. This is the best approach where a club has de facto responsibility for 'policing' use of the water and the delegated authority to back it up.

On other waters where a club may be officially 'recognised' but are not able to prevent outsiders from sharing the facility then offenders should be given a friendly warning and if this is ignored then the authorities left in no doubt that they are nothing to do with the club.

The general terms of use of the water should be agreed with the people who own the water and allow its use on the basis of principles such as low noise levels, minimal disturbance of wildlife etc. and any subsequent concerns addressed by discussion and negotiation. Local council officials and members cannot be expected to understand or get involved with the technicalities of the boats, I/C Lipo, brushless etc, etc. They are only interested in outcomes which are acceptable to them.

Colin
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canabus

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2019, 01:47:48 pm »

Hi All
One a fast electric 49", 20KG, 50mm brushless !!!
No it not my boat !!!!
Canabus
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clockworks

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2019, 01:59:51 pm »

Thanks for the input so far.


Our lake was originally built as the town's "swimming pool". It's in a small park on the edge of the town proper. When a proper indoor pool was built alongside the local secondary school, swimming stopped, and wildlife took over. Apparently it's now run by a Trust, the parish council having privatised it. Our club shed used to be the changing hut. Although the grass is cut and litter picked up, lake maintenance is zero. Nobody cleans up the bird mess. The pump that used to continually lift water from the adjacent stream to keep the lake water fresh has been switched off to save money.


It seems that priorities have changed, and money is being spent on on the kids areas of the park, while the lake and it's perimeter areas are slowly declining. The play equipment is well maintained, and a new skate park was built recently.


There are a couple of businesses that lease property in the park - a cafe, which seems to be doing well, and a cycle hire place that has shut up shop because the Trust increased the cost of the lease.


We pay absolutely nothing to use the lake or the shed, although we voluntarily maintain the shed. We have no contact or representation with the Trust. It was raised at the AGM that maybe we should seek a meeting with the Trust, and be prepared to either take on the maintenance ourselves, or pay a contribution towards upkeep. This is being looked into. Something needs to be done, as it's overgrown with weed during the summer months - no water circulation, and excessive feeding of the birds. For the last few weeks we've just gone along for a chat, very little actual boating can take place.


Because of the lack of contact, and never seeing any of the Trust's people onsite, it's down to us to keep things safe and create minimum disturbance to avoid members of the public making complaints to the Trust.
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Klunk

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2019, 03:09:03 pm »

there are several ways to look at this.
do you class  club 500 as fast electric? I've seen tugs go faster!
we segregate the lake. scale and yachts, or fast electrics poodling around one end, and anything the committee deem 'fast' past a certain pre determined point. we have members with 4ft boats that are high speed brushes, whilst most of the time they are quite happy sailing with the majority, sometimes they just want open them up.
one of these small brushes things zipping around is hazardous, but they weigh next to nothing, their main problem is the annoying sound! now a 4ft sea queen going full belt is downright stupid amongst slow boats!
the biggest problem though, is not speed. its the operators situational awareness. even with scale I've seen 2 boats on a lake manage to collide as both operators are not paying attention. having said that, common sense should always prevail, if you feel your boat is too fast what is on the water, sail away from the majority.  like most clubs we have a no ic policy due to noise and council restrictions, and these fall into a different category.
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Netleyned

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2019, 03:53:33 pm »

Anything upgraded from a Taycol
motor and 4.5 v flat (shape :} )
battery is fast electric imho :D
Ned
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malcolmfrary

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Re: How would you define "fast electric"?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2019, 03:58:45 pm »

I think the problem with fast boats and new drivers is that the driver knows where the boat is but not necessarily where it is going! 
Also, the driver often has no idea that anything else could be in hs way.  So busy admiring his boat going, whatever it is heading into is way below secondary.  Something like an FT009, while small, can be deadly to something with liteply sides. (The plastic guard cover didn't prevent damage, but did a fair job of bunging the resulting triangular hole).  The two members involved were long time friends, and, inexplicably, still are.
It is always a good idea to not mix fast boats and others - they are all models with remote control, which can never be regarded as 100% reliable.  A bit of a glitch on a fast boat alone on the water might be either embarrassing or annoying to the owner.  With other boats around, things potentially get much worse faster, the speed of getting worse increasing with the speed of the boat.  Whether the glitch is electronic or involves the brain to hand interface is independant of the results, but a new driver is more liable to not judge speed and direction accurately, and is much more likely to get confused about actual steering.
The idea that a boat that is intended purely as a thing to go fast on water, either for racing, setting records, or just because it can, is the definition of a "fast electric", but something that is a model of something to carry people that happens to be quick isn't.
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