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[Colin Bishop]

I have posted this on my Model Boats website but thought it might be worth repeating here as well. Some recent posts on here and elsewhere have got me thinking about the supposed benefits of new technology and how they sometimes come at a price.

A typical example is the car industry. Around 20 years or so ago you had a choice of mass market cars which were excellently designed, well appointed, handled well, were reliable and well protected against rust. They were also readily easy to repair if they did go wrong. For example the Mk 3 Ford Mondeo. They were essentially the end product of years of development of conventional motor engineering which ironed out most of the faults which had plagued their predecessors. Many are still on the road today.

Since then cars have become progressively more complex and loaded up with extra bells and whistles such as Sat Nav, lane control,  radar cruise control, blind spot monitoring and lots of fancy multi media electronics etc. etc., not to mention all the emission control gadgetry. The list goes on and on even for comparatively modest vehicles.But with that come increased weight, propensity for the electronics to mysteriously fail with little clue as to why, eye wateringly expensive repair bills for the slightest problem and expensive basic maintenance such as having to remove wheel arches to change headlight bulbs. Steel is now thinner and less well protected against rust, not good news for people buying 3 year old vehicles. So, on the one hand, there have been some nice improvements but they have come at a price.

I think you might look at model boating in a similar way. From beginning in the 1960s, mass market RC steadily developed through single channel, Reed sets, 27Mhz followed by 40MHz  proportional, topping out with the introduction of 2.4GHz which liberated us from the tyranny of crystals.Brushed motors became progressively more efficient with a wide range of specifications to suit most applications at low cost. Speed controller costs came down and in most cases were simple ‘plug and play’. Choice of battery was between Sealed Lead Acid in all shapes and sizes and  in 6v or 12v versions which you could mount in any position and NiCads, later superseded by NiMh cells which were remarkably tolerant of charging regimes and which have become available in ever greater capacities in standard cell sizes offering great advantages over SLAs in most situations.At this point we seemed to have reached a ‘plateau’ where things were readily understandable to existing boaters and new entrants to the hobby.

And then brushless motors and LiPo batteries came along! Much excitement for the genuine major performance and efficiency improvements they offered and which the techies among us have embraced with joy and gratitude. But the downside is that things have now become a lot more complicated as just a brief look at questions on forums show. It has made things a lot more difficult for newcomers to get up to speed (literally).

Brushless motor specifications are something of a no go area in many respects. How many Kv do I need, should I choose an inrunner or outrunner, must I have a special ESC for each motor in twin screw setups, how do I program the ESCs, must I have a LiPo battery for a brushless motor (depends on the type of model). Can I use a car or aircraft ESC, which ones have reverse or regenerative braking etc. etc.? Little wonder people are confused in getting to grips with all this.And the radios are not always straightforward either. I want an extra RX, do I need DMSL or DSMX to match my existing TX. Is the answer an Orange or a Lemon? Will a park flyer combo do for my boat or should I have full range?

Yes, the answers are all out there somewhere in cyberspace but you have to do a lot of homework to ensure you get what you want. A Mayhem member recently bought a 2+2 set believing he had two twin axis sticks but the LH stick just had vertical movement and the RH stick horizontal. The other two channels were on auxiliary switches. Careful reading of the specification did show this but it wasn’t altogether obvious and the customer is pretty fed up about it. Sorry for the long post but I thought it might initiate some discussion as to why people are put off from joining the hobby. OK if you are on the inside but a bit impenetrable otherwise.

Colin

[Tug Fanatic]

I see where you are coming from but this has been true for a long time. My parents never really understood VHS recorders whilst their grandchildren were totally happy programming them before they went to school.
Modelling is interesting. Coming from a model aircraft background I love brushless motors where the full specification is known & I can buy exactly what I want. Compare that to brushed motors where the spec is often a total guess.

Radio gear is the same story. All those lovely features are a great help to aeromodellers - who are the intended customers - and often useless for model boat people. So why do model boat people keep buying them. There are still basic radios made. In fact most computer radios only get complicated once you start delving into menus where boaters need not go at all.
The recent example you quote is a marketing issue and not a technical one. The radio clearly is described as a 2+2. It never says it is 4 proportional channels so why suppose that it is? The problem here is not the radio but the reading of the specification. I agree that it looked like an old 4 channel but so did a lot of older basic 2 channel sets. The other side of this problem is mail order. The mistake would not have been made, nor an overly complicated radio purchased, if the buyer has seen and tried the item in a real shop.

Beginners always need help & advice. For a lot of them that seems to be the internet rather than the club pondside. Internet explanations are always difficult compared to hands on help in the real world. I will never forget the beginner who turned up unannounced at the flying field with a model he had built with the wing upside down and extremely wobbly on the plane ! He was really cross that I wouldn't teach him to fly until he had got the wing the right way up, fixed in place and had insurance. We explained exactly what he needed to do but we never saw him again. I still half believe that it was set up by some other club members.

Yes things have changed but I see it as choice and the ability to better achieve my goals.

Having said all that I don't understand my smart phone at all. It took me several missed calls to realize that I answered it by sliding across the screen and it wouldn't work no matter how hard I pressed the screen button. I must be getting old.
 

[Dave_S.]

Too many forums! As I replied in the other place - I started out with a super regen single channel radio, one button to push. I managed to guide my crude own design boat around the lake with it, but I certainly didn't see multi channel propo gear as anything other than a (expensive) step forward. I now happily embrace 2.4 radios and certainly wouldn't willingly go back to 27 or 40 mHz and a peg board!I guess that how people view developments depends on far back down the line they started.

[Colin Bishop]

Yes, I rather agree. Technology is a ********* and you have to put in the effort to get what you want. Bu unfortunately it does put aspiring modellers off. They want black and white answers and these are less forthcoming than they were in the past.
Basically people want to put their models on the pond, switch on and steer them around but these days it ain't as simple as that. (if it ever was!)

Colin

[raflaunches]

I must agree with both camps despite not truly understanding the latest in brushless technology.
I can understand that we need to progress hence brushless and LiPo batteries, and arduino processors. If the methodology when choosing brushless and LiPo batteries were made simpler then I think it would be embraced by a lot more people- a direct comparison with brushed motors would help.
With regards to cars I drive a Vauxhall Vectra C 2006 model and the most sophisticated item on it after ABS is cruise control which I don’t use. I intend to restore my old MG ZA to allow me to drive a car which will be easy to fix and allow me to drive anywhere in the UK without having to pay the London Exclusion Zone charges. I’m not a massive fan of all singing and dancing cars and I know that one day when the Vectra gives up the ghost or spares become unavailable I will have to buy a modern car to supplement the MG.
I still use 27 and 40MHz radios and have a couple of 2.4GHz but I’m slowly adapting to newer technology as I begin to understand it! I’m a mechanical aircraft engineer not a ‘leckie’ so I’m not 100% with modern electrics but I will try to.

[BrianB6]

I am going to stick with my 2004 Toyota Camry (Ozzie made) until self driving cars are the norm. 

[canabus]

Hi Guys
After a 20 year plus break from modelling, to get back into was a bit of a shock from the old school stuff.

The club members were a great help with recommended radios and all the other stuff.

Yes I have had a few errors on the way, but there was always a clubie to call on.

Also I found the model boat forums which added to my help calls.

I keep learning more and hopefully helping other people out with their problems.

Made lot of internet friends, so I am a happy modeller.

Canabus

[roycv]

Hi Dave S, your comment on too many forums. 
Model Boats magazine had a really good forum, just as Mayhem is now.  There was a change of ownership of the publishers and it was neglected and no longer used.  It had a wealth of informtion all probably lost now.  I remember writing to them and had some contact with an employee but to no avail.

Mayhem was set up in the vacuum and is what it is now thanks to Martin and the monitoring team.
A contrast between the two is unfortunately a no contest, that does not mean that Colin does not do his best.  But it was a self inflicted problem.   Can we rely on a commercial sponsor?  Only if it is a vehicle for them to freely advertise and is financially viable.  It could all end by a disinterested boardroom vote.

So we have to support Martin keep the donations up and make sure we stay viable.  Self funding is proving better for us as a community, and of course we see a result in the colourful attire of Martin!
Regards to all,
Roy

[Colin Bishop]

You are right in what you say Roy, it was a great shame that the old Model Boats Forum was jettisoned by the previous owners but that's true of all 'freebie' facilities which are always subject to the Gods of the Bottom Line. And yes, I do me best!

But it also demonstrates that nothing held online is really safe, whether on websites or in 'The Cloud'. Valuable data can just evaporate at any time without warning as people discover all the time.

But don't make the mistake that Mayhem is really safe either. There have been near disasters in the past where hosting companies have suffered technical problems and restoring from local backup has been difficult and sometimes incomplete. And as far as I am aware, should Martin fall under a bus, there is no disaster recovery plan for somebody to step up and continue the site of which the Forum is just one part.

There was a newspaper article last weekend which highlighted these vulnerabilites and the potential loss of vital data if it has not been recorded in physical format. Be afraid! (and buy the magazine  )

Colin

[Plastic - RIP]

I have no problem with technology - but I hate pointless tech like a web interface on a fridge.

I understand most tech but I'm an engineer - understanding how it works means I understand its limits and vulnerabilities so I can predict how it will fail or let me down.

I drive a 16-yeal old car - I got it from an old boy and it was immaculate with no miles - practically a new car.     It's simple, maintainable and cheap to fix - and almost any fault ever found is on a forum somewhere with a youtube on how to solve it.

It's one of the reasons I choose mainstream cars - when they fall into the home mechanic's hands, the information spreads.   The lesser-known models have no information on the web so the dealer has you over a barrel.
 

[Subculture]

You can still purchase straightforward cars without all the frills. Have a look at a Suzuki. Many extras have been included as a result of consumer demand.

Cars do use thinner steel these days, but they're much better protected against rust than cars used to be years ago. Very common to see a car barely out of warranty with perforations back in the 1980's, how often do you see a rusty car these days? They're electrophoretically dipped in epoxy primers after construction, steel sheet tends to be zinc plated too, coupled with wheel arch liners, cars just don't rust out in the way they used to.

As for modern kit in modelling, I much prefer things the way they are now to back in the day. There always was a steep learning curve to this hobby to get to a certain level of proficiency, and you never really stop learning anyway.

Modern electronics are far more robust, reliable, cheaper and give better performance in every way.  The shrinking of numbers is down to many factors, but I don't think that has anything to do with the stuff that goes inside our models. I think it's far more down to simple nuts and bolts construction of building a model- those skills are in decline and are now almost lost to anyone below middle age.

[Plastic - RIP]

With regards to cars I drive a Vauxhall Vectra C 2006 model and the most sophisticated item on it after ABS is cruise control which I don’t use.

Vectra C is a very complicated car - it has 6 computers hidden around the car and they suffer from corrosion on the interconnecting cables and odd faults occur.    It has fly-by-wire controls and electric steering.   A common fault is alternator partial failure - so it doesn't charge the battery - unfortunately, the low voltage means the computer shuts down non-essential systems - like the alternator warning light     and the power steering    .
I have an Astra Mk4 - it uses a lot of Vectra B parts so it's sensible and fixable - most of its tech dates from about 1994.

[frogman3]

HI ALL im a fairly newbie an im building hms tiger in the scratch build section but reading this thread got me goin as I  a few months ago I bought a new Futaba 6 channel R/C SYSTEM for my hms Norfolk type23 frigate. An when buyin said radio the shop did not have much of a choice an as I wanted a 6 cha R/C  I bought the new 2.4 gig system  only to find that to charge the batts on it the batts have to be taken out of the radio an put in a separate charger but I found a problem with this idea is that takeing batts in an out to charge makes the pickup terminals bend inwards an then as I found to my cost the radio went off as lose batts connections an just as well I had fitted a fail safe system in my ship or damage would have occurred an this seems a silly idea as I thought it was far better to leave batts in radio an have a charger that plugs into the radio has anyone else had this problem  ? AN I THOUGHT IF I KEEP bending the terminals out to make a good batt connetion the terminals will snap off sooner or later  ANY WAY RANT OVER
Chris

[Plastic - RIP]

Cars do use thinner steel these days, but they're much better protected against rust than cars used to be years ago. Very common to see a car barely out of warranty with perforations back in the 1980's, how often do you see a rusty car these days? They're electrophoretically dipped in epoxy primers after construction, steel sheet tends to be zinc plated too, coupled with wheel arch liners, cars just don't rust out in the way they used to.

Mercs and BMWs rust like mad - front & rear wheel-arches within 5 years - it's criminal for these 'premium' brands.

[dougal99]

I think there is a difference here between the more mature and the younger generation. Several posters talk about being able to maintain their car and by inference understand how it works. My grandchildren don't understand the technology they use, they just expect it to work. As for coming into the hobby, 'not unless I can do it through my phone'.


My father, a motor fitter, would not have been able to work on the latest engines without a lot of re-education. Time moves on and we can't be expected to understand it all. Adapt or die seems to be the current mantra.

[Colin Bishop]

Mercs and BMWs rust like mad - front & rear wheel-arches within 5 years - it's criminal for these 'premium' brands.

So do Mazdas like my 6 which is otherwise a great car in most respects.

I put it down to cars these days now being 'engineered' to last through the warranty period with no thought of subsequent owners. In Japan I'm told people rarely keep their cars more than three years due to stringent MOT regulations. They are then shipped off to New Zealand which is stuffed full of them!

And the problem with modern electronics in a climate like we have in the UK is that the damp eventually finds its way in and replacement components are eye wateringly expensive.

Colin

[Tug Fanatic]

.....................................and replacement components are eye wateringly expensive.

Colin

So are a lot of other things. I have been considering a new lawn tractor. For an EU made tractor (no import tariffs to UK) the cost here is around £3400 with best discount whilst the same tractor in the US is list price around $2500 (which even at todays brexit exchange rate is around £2000).

It makes me want to cry.

[KitS]

Vectra C is a very complicated car - it has 6 computers hidden around the car and they suffer from corrosion on the interconnecting cables and odd faults occur.    It has fly-by-wire controls and electric steering.   A common fault is alternator partial failure - so it doesn't charge the battery - unfortunately, the low voltage means the computer shuts down non-essential systems - like the alternator warning light     and the power steering    .
I have an Astra Mk4 - it uses a lot of Vectra B parts so it's sensible and fixable - most of its tech dates from about 1994.

Amen to that! 

I have a couple of Signums, Vectra Cs with larger hatchbacks, and one of them is in the garage right now because both front indicator bulbs have failed. You'd think it would be a matter of moments to take the bulbs out and swap them over, wouldn't you?

NO chance, you have to take the entire front bumper assembly off to gain access to the RH bulb and at my age I'm not doing that sort of stuff any more.

The other Signum has a fault on the cruise control as it only engages in 3rd and 4th gears, pretty useless when 'cruising' in 5th or 6th. This is because some shyster of a garage changed the entire gearbox (for a wrong one....) when all I needed was the outer casing which had cracked. It's impossible to re-program the umpteen computers to make the cruise work without actually swapping one of them for a new one, at a cost of over £600............... 

[Plastic - RIP]

My wife has had a few Vectra C/Signum and they've all had common problems - I know how to fix them all now - like the 2.2 petrol EGR valve - there's a bypass plate and software upgrade available - also, the heater motor rusts because the scuttle drain blocks and the water goes through the heater - the footwell fills with the water the moisture corrodes the computer connectors.   The rusty motor draws more current so blows the speed control fuse located in the footwell behind the glovebox (the symptom is the fan only works on full speed) - it's the same item that catches fire in the Zafiras.   They eat rear springs too - but I can fit a new one in 15 minutes.

The good thing about Vauxhalls is they go wrong so often that the solutions are well documented.   It's the reason why I prefer Ford, Vauxhall, VW or BMW - the tinkering boys favourites.    There will be no solutions on the web for Hondas, Daewoo, Suzuki, Renault etc. because the owners of those cars don't tinker.

[Subculture]

If you want an old car, you can still get them- they come under the category of classics. Think many are looking back with rose tinted glasses. Certainly you can get faults with electronics as a car ages. Most of the benefits in reliability on modern cars can be found in efi and mapped breakerless ignition systems. these can be retrofitted to older vehicles if you choose.

[NickelBelter]

Cars are becoming increasingly complicated to satisfy increasingly intrusive regulations.  You need to have a backup camera system and blind-spot detection because you can't see out of modern cars because the beltlines have been raised to satisfy side-impact tests and the hoods have been jacked up to improve 'pedestrian safety'*.  You need sixteen different sensors in the fuel and exhaust system because heaven forbid the engine ever run a little rich or smoke a bit.  You need sixteen forward gears in order to get that 40mpg efficiency target in a bloated vehicle weighed down by all the extra electronics above.  My generation is blamed for the downfall of the auto industry because we're all supposedly too poor to buy one, but the auto industry has wholeheartedly embraced the 'cars-as-appliances' mentality and what person can get themselves excited enough to spend thirty to forty grand on what has same level of styling and appeal as a toaster oven?


*this is the reason I see cited all the time for the massive slab-fronted appearance of so many vehicles, I suppose when you are hit by an older pickup truck it comes in at the waist and breaks your back wheras a modern one smashes your entire body to goo in one go, nice and painless?

[Colin Bishop]

The higher bonnet/hood is intended to provide a crumple zone for pedestrians landing on it. Previously they would have been smashed against the top of the engine block below.
Colin

[Plastic - RIP]

You need sixteen different sensors in the fuel and exhaust system because heaven forbid the engine ever run a little rich or smoke a bit. 

Fuel injection is simple if you think about what an engine does and what the management needs to know to inject the fuel and trigger the sparks.   It's really only temperature, airflow, throttle & rotation sensing and mixture control from the Lambda sensor.It will run badly with just rotation and throttle only - the rest just adjusts the power mapping - so a failure in any of those will put the light up on the dash.

[frogman3]

So do Mazdas like my 6 which is otherwise a great car in most respects.

I put it down to cars these days now being 'engineered' to last through the warranty period with no thought of subsequent owners. In Japan I'm told people rarely keep their cars more than three years due to stringent MOT regulations. They are then shipped off to New Zealand which is stuffed full of them!

And the problem with modern electronics in a climate like we have in the UK is that the damp eventually finds its way in and replacement components are eye wateringly expensive.

Colin

HI Colin yes I bought a brand new mazda  6 TS2 an Just as the 3yr warranty exspires the fuel injection pump packs an the bill was horrendous due to the unit working the cruise control but thankfully mazda paid nr all the costs  as I was    but good on them
chris

[NickelBelter]

The higher bonnet/hood is intended to provide a crumple zone for pedestrians landing on it. Previously they would have been smashed against the top of the engine block below.
Colin

The height of the hood on most pickup trucks and SUVs sold here is nearly five feet... nobody this side of Andre the Giant is landing on top of the hood!