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Author Topic: TLC for an old Lady  (Read 7397 times)

JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2019, 12:58:56 PM »

Hi Roy, Thanks for the information. I take your point about a new deck on an old hull, and I would love to retain the old deck. But as you may see the photos show how bad it is. its warped in several places and has a few cracks the longest one is nearly from bow to the hatch opening, so in effect splitting it in half. The last photo shows masking tape I have put on to try and keep it together. There are sever water marks and what looks like oil spill patches and a bit of sun bleaching.
I have thought about submerging the deck in a bath of water over night and then sandwiching it between completely flat surfaces and placing very heavy paving slabs on it for a week , somewhere out of the weather. If I could get away with that to some degree then I stand a better chance in trying to re store the original deck all be it with oil and water stains..🙂
So saying that and as I'm in no rush I may try that just to see if it will work, but also start to fabricate a new deck just in case.
I will also practice the planking.. :}
Regards Jim
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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2019, 04:03:11 PM »

Hi Jim,
I thought I would add my three penny worth in response to your request for advice.


My wife and I are both members of the Vintage Model Yacht Group and have restored a number of vintage yachts over the last 10 years.  There are lots of differing opinions about the best way to restore a hull and most of them will work but some are better than others.  Our concerns about you proposed approach is that it may add significant weight to the hull and it will not stop the water penetrating the wooden planking from the outside.


We prefer to rub down the hull dry if possible.  You can use Nitromors to remove paint or varnish but its messy and its difficult to clean it all off if it gets between the planks.  Repair any major cracks or gaps between the planks using either Araldite or aliphatic resin


Our method is to clad the outside of the hull with glass cloth, typically about 50 grm/sq m, usually from Bucks Composites,  The cloth will drape well over the hull with a few strategic nips and tucks where there is a large change in section.  Woven cloth drapes much better than tissue mat.  Lightly spraying the hull with Spraymount adhesive helps hold the cloth in place as you start applying the resin. A major advantage of this method is you don't need to remove the deck if its OK, although in your case it looks as though a new deck is the only viable option.


The resin we use is is Z-poxy finishing resin, thinned with about 25% isopropanol.  It penetrates the cloth and wood well and gives a reasonable working time of about 15-20 minutes, depending on how warm it is.  We use a small set of jeweller's scales to weigh out the mixture proportions directly into the working container, usually a Sainsbury's carbonara sauce pot.  Usually 2 coats are enough although sometime 3 are required.  The resin is easy to sand down to a smooth finish.  After that its either prime and paint or gloss varnish the hull.  The cloth is virtually invisible after varnishing, you would not know its there unless someone told you.


We have tried various methods of treating the inside of the hull but we prefer to allow it to breathe after the outside has been effectively sealed with the epoxy.  Possible options are Teak oil, linseed oil or turpentine, as recently used by a friend of ours with promising results.


Here are a couple of photos of a recently restored Marblehead hull in the process of being draped in glass cloth and then after varnishing.


With regard to lining the deck, I wrote an article on our approach to this for the Turning Pole (the journal of the VMYG).  If you can send me your email address I will forward you a copy.


Gareth
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2019, 05:51:58 PM »

Hi Gareth, Thank you for your reply, the information is very helpful and the result on your Marblehead is very impressive. It's the sort of finish that I would like to see the Old Lady wear.
Can you please tell me how much resin would you typical use on a boat the size of your Marblehead, as you do multiple coats.
I would very much like to read your article ..PM sent.🙂
Best Regards  Jim
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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2019, 06:32:06 PM »

Hi Jim,


I would guess we use about 40-50 ml of resin for one coat of a Marblehead.  The first coat usually takes the most as the wood and cloth soak it up,  Subsequent coats are usually somewhat less.  I would guess a 10 Rater would take around 60-70 ml and you would probably have to just mix up enough resin to do each side separately to avoid it going off before you have finished.


Do not worry about being unable to remove the keel unless it is loose.  We would be inclined to cover that with cloth and resin as well as it helps to eliminate the cracks that tend to appear along the joint between the lead and the wood.


I should point out that all the work on the Marblehead in the pictures was by my wife.  She is definitely the expert varnisher in the family, having been taught the secrets by a master of the art, the late Alan Wyatt of Kirklees MBC.   I usually make the metal fittings, add the radio controls and do the final rigging.  We tend to make all our large 'class' racing yachts dual control with the option sailing  them under radio control or with Braine or vane steering as appropriate to their age.  I believe yours would have originally been Braine steered.

Regards
Gareth


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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2019, 02:32:18 PM »

Hi All, just to say that I have decided to go with Gareth's advice and fiberglass the exterior of the hull, and attempt (that being the operative word) to get a similar result.
So on whent the first coat of varnish stripper.. :-)
Thank you Gareth for the helpfull information and the artical on lining. Have you given any thought to posting it on this forum? It is a really informative and a well written article.
Jim
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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 08:39:04 AM »

Hi Jim,

I am glad you found the deck lining article interesting and useful.  As far as I am aware the Mayhem forum does not really lend itself to publishing articles, although I suppose the information could be put on in the form of a blog.  The deck lining article and many similar 'how to do it' articles (not all by me I hasten to add) have been published in the Turning Pole, the journal of the Vintage Model Yacht Group over the last 20 years or so.  Membership of the organisation costs 20 per year and new members receive a CD with all the back issues of the Turning Pole, which is published twice a year.  We have considered publishing some of this sort of information on the VMYG website,  http://www.vmyg.org.uk but so far there has been no progress on the project.  I will try and encourage the committee to give the idea some more thought, but one of the major problems is finding someone in the membership with the time, knowledge, energy and inclination to get on and do these things.

I don't know what your plans are with regard to fitting radio control but I have written a couple of other articles for the Turning Pole, one on rudder controls and one on fitting sail winches in Vintage Yachts.  If you would like copies of them I could forward them to you.

Regards
Gareth
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roycv

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 09:42:09 AM »

Hello Gareth I have sent you a PM.
regards
Roy
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2019, 10:10:26 AM »

Hi All, The old varnish is now off and as the weather is slowly closing my workshop  {:-{ I am now looking at cleaning the fittings. After many year the grim has accumulated I can see that the duraglit is going to take a bashing. :}  and mentioning bashing, I think the Brains needs a wee bit of straightening.
Gareth, I have never sailed a yacht, but i am intrested in finding out more about installing rc., I have also looked at the VMYG site and may consider signing up for a membership. And yes please i would very much like to take up your offer on the copies of the articles. Thank You
Jim
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roycv

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2019, 11:01:04 AM »

Nice fittings you have there.  A good soaking in a domestic cleaner helps, with an old toothbrush for getting in the corners.

Tomato sauce has tamarind in it and this cleans up brass very well!
 
I used to use Viacom but now they have taken out the sulphuric acid it is only so-so.  White vinegar is another cleaner albeit a bit slow.  Duraglit for finish sounds OK.
regards,
 Roy
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2019, 12:21:08 PM »

Thanks Roy, The Duraglit didnt make a great impression. However during that cleaning process, I uncovered farthings as part of the steering gear O0  I dont know if there is any significance in it or it's just what the original builder used at the time, but I would be interesting to know.
I have now put the fitting in tomato sauce, I will leave them there for a few hours and then inspect the progress.
Cheers Jim
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2019, 10:15:39 PM »

Hi All, Managed to get all the grim off the fittings ( Thank you Roy the tomato sauce worked a treat). I did find that the fittings were once nickel plated, and over time had deteriorated. So I gave them a bath in good old oven cleaner for 20 minutes, then a gentle rub down with light wire wool. Some of the fittings need repair/replacing and the quadrent turned out to be made off copper. Some of them are in need of repair/replacing and the pullys have seased  {:-{
I'm thinking of re-platting them to keep with the original build. But I need to know: if the deck fittings were platted would the gooseneck and other fittings on the mast and jib also be of nickel platted?.


Gareth, I have decided after reading your article to go with RC, so if you dont mind, would it be ok if I sent you a PM about that?
Jim
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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2019, 07:43:21 AM »

Go ahead with the PM Jim, I will look out for it.


Gareth


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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2019, 06:51:24 PM »

Hi All, Just a bit of a catchup with a snippet of news regarding the Old Lady, after talking to the chap (over a pint) who so kindly gave me her. He relayed that she had been rescued by his uncle from the amminity tip in the Portsmouth area along with another smaller boat, back in the early seventies. Unfortunately the smaller boat had been put on the bonfire several years later due to woodworm and then the Old Lady had been given to my friend. He also told me that the yachts name is Edith as its inscribe on the hatch cover. The cover is yet to be found as it is still in the back of of his shed somewhere and as soon as he finds it, he will give it to me and then they will be as one again.
Given that information I will be renaming her "The Old Lady Edith"  :}  I h[size=78%]ave also been locking into fitting RC into her (Thank you Gareth for the information) and have decided to install a removable system. However I am in need of some information regarding the mast, jib, and boom. After reading some information in the post by Royc, the rule of thumb is that the mast should be approximately 25percent longer than the hull, so that would make the mast 60" tall the boom between 18 and 20 " with the jib at 10 to 12". [/size]
[/size][size=78%]Can anyone put me right with this wee problem or is there an equation that can be employed? [/size]
[/size][size=78%]Here are her dimensions LOA 48" Beam 10" Depth 9 and 3/4".[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Many Thanks Jim[/size]
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roycv

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2019, 08:34:27 PM »

Hi Jim I think I would miss out the 'old' from the name.  'The Lady Edith' sounds so much nicer, no Ladies like to be reminded of their age you know.
May I sugest you put a data history inside the hull for the next owner?
regards

Roy
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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2019, 08:42:29 PM »

Hi Jim,


My wife restored a yacht of similar dimensions to your Old Lady Edith, but we have never established whether it is a 10 Rater or a 6M class.  It is 48 inches long and 10.75 inches beam and was built around 1939 to a plan in a hobbies magazine of that era.  Elizabeth was given it as a collection of loose parts after the previous owner attempted a restoration and then gave up.  As it came to us it had an exceptionally tall mast, I would guess around 84 inches including the under deck section.  It also had an exceptionally tall narrow suit of sails  (too dilapidated to use).  We have a photo of the original builder alongside the yacht and these did seem similar proportion sails.  I have attached a photo of the hull, taken side on as we got it.  The jib boom is 14.5 inches and the main is 20.75 inches long


Initially we sailed it with a newish set of Marblehead sails, 800 sq inches total area and about 65 inches mainsail luff.  The second photo shows the grand daughter of the original builder alongside the restored yacht when fitted with these sails.  Subsequently we have cut down the mast to 76 inches total length and it has been fitted with  an older set of sails which we think are more in keeping with the yacht.   If I get a chance tomorrow I will rig it and post a photo as it is now.


If you are able to bring the yacht along to Gosport on Bank Holiday Monday it is possible that someone may be able to identify its class or remember it, if it came from the Portsmouth area.  However it is a bit of a long shot.


Gareth
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Capt Podge

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2019, 08:46:03 PM »

Hey, I've just stumbled across this blog and I am fascinated by it. I've done a few rebuilds myself but nothing as old as this one.
Looking forward to seeing more of your updates  :-)


Regards,
Ray.
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roycv

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2019, 10:14:41 PM »

Hi, just measured my 27 inch loa yacht and mast height is 42 inches from the deck.  Refering previously my 25 % ball park figure was for scale yachts, not class or pond yachts.  This figure is nearer 50%.

I think the big difference may be that you need to get the sails up high as the wind speed slows at ground level.  Witness, lay down in a wind and the wind speed decreases noticeably.
regards
 Roy


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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2019, 08:08:46 AM »

Hi Roy,


Here is a photo of Spindrift as it is now with the cut down mast and an old set of sails, adapted from another set we had.  The top of the mast is 71 inches above the deck level and the main sail luff is 62 inches.  The foot of the jib and mainsail are both wider than the Marblehead set we used initially and the total sail area is about 900 sq inches.  It is not intended that Spindrift complies with any particular set of class rules.  I think its most likely to be a 6 Metre class design, but the 6M class rules are pretty complicated and I have never tried to confirm that.


Regards
Gareth
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roycv

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2019, 09:25:49 AM »

Hello Gareth, my, she looks really nice, well done.  Thanks for the extra detail and tips in your email, all good stuff I had not thought of.

 The paint I have does not look too shiny I will see how it goes.  Most of the car acrylics need an additional  spray of varnish to harden them up.  I will let you know what happens.
I have arm and sail winches to hand but am going with an arm winch using a metal geared servo Tower Pro R 946.  Just using its' 90 degree movement, sheets doubled up with a pulley to the main and direct to the jib. 

This servo has a 13Kgrm pull at 1cm so at 10 cms 1.3 Kgrms, more than enough.

I have a redundant set of sails from an Aeronaut Bella yacht which are a perfect fit, got to do a bit of sewing though as there is a jackstay on the mast.

She will end up almost a Half M which Vic Smeed tried to promote way back.

best regards
 Roy


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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2019, 03:06:12 PM »

Hi Roy, I take your point about dropping the old in renaming her. And will go with your suggestion  :-))


Gareth I do agree with Roy, you have made a splendid jog of the Spindrift she looks really good.
 Also looking at the dimension you gave for the yacht your wife rebuilt, it is very close to The Lady Edith, and I will duplicate your mast, jib and doom sizes and they are near Roy's suggestion of 50 percent. And if they need any adaptation I will start again.
I have read in a book "Model Sailing Yaghts" 1951 by Daniels and Tucker on construction of masts, jibs and booms. However I'm still thinking where to source the correct wood and at the appropriate length. Looking on the internet the only thickness I can get close to the size I require is 19mm, and that would mean alot of work getting it down to 15mm.So I'm thinking a size closer would be nice. :}  has anyone got any links?


Today I took advantage of a break in the weather and have put the first coat of dye on The Lady Edith. If the weather lasts over the weekend, I should have the varnish on.


Jim
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roycv

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2019, 07:10:51 PM »

Hi Jim one point illustrated by Spindrift is to form a nice line between the base of jib to follow the line of the Mainsail.  Looks so much better like that.  Also if/when you fit bowsies in the shrouds keep them low and level

Roy
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2019, 07:56:33 PM »

Thank you Roy, I will keep that in mind  :-))
Jim
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2019, 08:27:36 AM »

Gareth, can you please tell me, what is the taper on the mast of Spindrift?
Many thanks
Jim
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garethjones35

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2019, 09:21:45 AM »

Hi Jim,


The mast on Spindrift is in two sections joined by a pair of sliding fit brass tubes where the cross tree/spreader sits, 1200 mm above the deck.  The bottom section of the mast starts at 15 mm diameter at deck level, tapering down to 13 mm at the brass tube joiner.  The top section of the mast is 600 mm long and is approx 11.5 mm diameter at the brass tube joiner and 10.3 mm diam at the top.


Normally a spreader would be fitted about 55% of the mast length up from the deck level but because we cut down the top section of the mast on Spindrift, the spreader has ended up at about 67% of the mast height but its not that critical for an old yacht where ultimate performance and efficiency is not required.


Are you still planning to cover the outside of the hull with glass cloth and resin?


Regards
Gareth
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JimS59

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Re: TLC for an old Lady
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2019, 07:09:07 AM »

Thank you Gareth,


That is very useful information. I had been thinking of making a two part mast, as described in the book that I'm reading. By useing rectangular wood sections, gouged out and glued together before tapering, as the original may have been made. However saying that, while collecting a few things from Wickes I noticed that they sold 15mm x 2.4m pine dowel but unfortunately they were sold out, I still have the thought of making the mast out of mahogany with the gouged out sections to reduce the weight.


I had also been thinking of a two part mast but using brass screw joint similar to the fittings they use for breakdown snooker cues.


Yes I am still thinking of going ahead with the fibre glass, I am waiting for the finishing resin to arrive. And hopefully it should be here soon.
Regards
Jim
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