Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[Colin Bishop]

When I first heard of the plan to substitute a less capable design for some of the planned Type 26 frigates to save money my first reaction was , here we go again, an inadequate design that will be overpriced and underspecified. Probably just a souped up Ocean Patrol Vessel.

However, looking a some of the latest information published on the Arrowhead design from BAE, the vessel looks to be quite a potent ship if fully equipped as intended and apparently several can be had for the cost of the more sophisticated Type 26. This does seem to offer the potential to boost numbers of surface ships which the RN requires although at the moment they just seem to be substituting for Type 26 ships on a one for one basis.

The Arrowhead builds on an existing apparently successful design for the Danish Navy so hopefully might suffer less teething problems than might be associated with an entirely new design. Its size also offers a degree of future proofing for updating through service life as well.

Has anyone else had a look at this and if so what are your thoughts?

Some deatails here:

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/more-details-of-the-royal-navys-type-31-frigate-emerge/

Colin

[raflaunches]

I must admit when I first heard about the Type 31e project I thought it was going to be somewhere between an OPV and a frigate, more of a corvette kind of design. But seeing what the Babcock Consortium have designed I’m surprised that we haven’t ordered more of them, especially if the price doesn’t double as we have seen with recent Royal Navy warship programmes.
Personally I preferred the aesthetics of the BAE ‘Leander’ proposal but considering that they are building the Type 26 Frigates it perhaps was a good idea to award Babcock the bid as it opens up other shipyards again that were closing down.
Until quite recently I always thought that RN vessels were always under armed for their size but they seem to be getting their act together, the refit of HMS Sunderland and the testing of the Martlet missile in conjunction with CWIS is a beginning of arming our warships with more weapons that work.

[Colin Bishop]

Sorry, I meant to say Babcock - senior moment!

I was down at Portsmouth today, no Navy on display unless you count HMS Victory.

A report I've seen suggests that you can build 5 type 31s for one Type 26. A bit staggering if true.

Colin

[rnli12]

The Arrowhead is a Babcock design based on the Danish Iver Huitfeldt class frigate, its impressive capability rest assured i've been in the thick of it 

[unbuiltnautilus]

Sorry, I meant to say Babcock - senior moment!

I was down at Portsmouth today, no Navy on display unless you count HMS Victory.

A report I've seen suggests that you can build 5 type 31s for one Type 26. A bit staggering if true.

Colin

Yes, a bit thin on the ground with surface ships at the moment!

[TailUK]

They don't look bad.  I'm not sure about reducing the main armament to 57mm instead of the usual 110mm It means they will lose fire support capability. but the 40mm look like a good system.  Either way the more ships the better!.

[rnli12]

All weapons and sensors are interchangable

[justboatonic]

Fingers crossed that all the numbers ordered are built and delivered. We should have had 12 Type 45 but ended up with just 6.
Weapons fitment on the 31 seems good although Im no expert. Im a bit concerned the ships wont have CIWS even if they will be armed for 'swarm' type attacks and two 40mm bofors. One of the lessons from the Falklands was the ships couldnt always defend themselves. Again, a concern is weapons fit is reduced to save costs.

[TailUK]

I think the reasoning is that fewer larger calibre shells at longer ranges are better than the CIWS "scatter gun" approach.  In addition the 40mm will be dual purpose, able to engage surface targets out to 12.5 Kms

[BrianB6]

So already out of date against a Chinese drone attacking at Mach 3+ 

[T888]

Personally I'm sad that the Type 26 orders went to a Scottish yard.
After the OPVs build issues, I would have thought the Type 31s should have gone to a yard south of Scotland.

[Liverbudgie2]

Cammell Lairds/BAE were the lead yard until they, whoever they are, decided to review the contract. Just a sop to the Scots in my jaundiced view.

LB

[Allnightin]

I expected a glorified OPV fit for the cost being mentioned so the proposed design is certainly larger and more capable than I thought, begging the question how this can be achieved.  I suspect that the target figure given is for the cost as delivered and has no allowance for the the through-life support facilities that will be required to keep the ships operational.  This may be considerably higher than for a BAE alternative given the high proportion of equipment that hasn't been in RN service before - propulsion, radar, command system and weaponry just to give a few all appear to be new to the RN.   Is this a case of penny wise and pound foolish when looking at the long term overall costs?

[gingyer]

Personally I'm sad that the Type 26 orders went to a Scottish yard.
After the OPVs build issues, I would have thought the Type 31s should have gone to a yard south of Scotland.

the OPVs were built on the Clyde by BAe Systems, these ships are being built on the Forth by Babcock's....another company so you cannot compare the 2

Cammell Lairds/BAE were the lead yard until they, whoever they are, decided to review the contract. Just a sop to the Scots in my jaundiced view.

LB

According to the media they were the lead, the government/ MoD never said much about it, the review was carried out as all 3 tenders broke the financial cap on the ships costs




it may interest all those moaning that Babcocks wanted to build sections at Appledore's, H&W and Fergusons yards from all over the UK, All are now in different stages of financial problems how that will turn out for the build of the ships, it could open the door for other yards such as Cammel laird.
The Babcocks yard employs people from Scotland but the majority when I was there come from England and Poland.


Second last point the information that this is to keep the Scots happy, the Drydock they intend to build in was originally done up for the Trident refits..... do you want to really continue???? 


And lastly lets be thankful, we are not sending these overseas if they did then I wouldn't see the return of warship manufacturing in the UK

[davidsg1a]

Well done on Babcocks getting the contract, finally competion to BAE and these ships are getting sections built all round the UK, great to see yards from up and down the country getting a piece of the cake.


Good looking ships too.

[dreadnought72]

Personally I'm sad that the Type 26 orders went to a Scottish yard.

As an English-born fella, living in Scotland the last 26 years, I'd be banned if what I wanted to say, was said. So I won't. 


Andy, not saying nuffin'

[Colin Bishop]

Well, as suggested earlier - better the orders are placed in the UK than in South Korea.

Also, the hull construction is probably 50% or less of the total cost, the balance being made up of the equipment and weapons systems which come from various sources.

Colin

[Klunk]

topic modified.
keep it nice guys. let's keep politics out of the discussion please. family forum and all that.

[davidsg1a]

Well said Klunk.

[McGherkin]

I think the issue will be that the base spec is a bit pony - but it meets the budget requirements.

The additional extras that make it into a potent warship (in particular the fact that missile tubes are optional!) are (no doubt expensive) optional extras.

[dodes]

Keep politicians out of the decisions and most certainly the Treasury, you may get some decent vessels. One small question, this country has always relied heavily in war on convoy escorts, even in the days of sail, can these vessels keep up with modern container ships at sea!!

[McGherkin]

Yes they can, the 25 knot requirement was for exactly this.

[rnli12]

25+   

[DavieTait]

HMS Queen Elizabeth has a "design speed" of 25 knots but hit slightly over 32 knots on light ship trials so should be good for 28 knots at full load

[McGherkin]

Yep, well in excess of the requirement for both. I think the Arrowhead will actually do something like 27. Faster than commercial shipping anyway.