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Author Topic: Large custom gas tanks  (Read 1502 times)

rhavrane

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Large custom gas tanks
« on: October 19, 2019, 12:39:21 PM »

Bonjour,
To minimize the effects of cooling in use, I am making large horizontal or vertical gas tanks and in addition I add a visible level:
https://youtu.be/aF4IRpIQbro
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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pendlesteam

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2019, 09:07:58 AM »

The effect of gas cooling is the single biggest killer of boiler performance. I often have customers complain that their boiler isnt performing as well as it should when in fact it is the massive drop in gas pressure caused by cooling which is to blame. For that reason I reccommend that a large disposable gas tank be used, the bigger the better and even then these suffer from freezing (the sun is always shining where Raphael lives but its cold in north UK LOL). Even the slightest warming has a massive effect on gas pressure and so some kind of tank warming is very desirable. Easiest solution is to have the tank on the same metal base as the boiler, or to position the tank extremely close to the boiler - but not touching it. A steam exhaust driven heater coil can be made and ive even seen a battery powered heater coil used. A burner with a no.5 jet as used in most of our (Pendle Steam) burners isnt such a problem but for boilers such as our 4.5" high output boiler which has a flue of 2.5" a no.16 jet is needed and these quickly cool even a large gas tank - add a little warmth and they burn like a rocket, allow them to start to freeze and they wont work effectively at all. Whilst the tank Raphael has made is clearly well made and holding gas be aware that any gas tank home build in UK will be subject to a club pressure test of 400psi - and never use a commercially made steam tap as a gas tap as they are prone to leaking. Fine for steam but not so for a gas which is heavier than air.
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2019, 01:04:55 PM »

Bonjour,
I fully agree with Nigel's information and I would just add that JMC tests his tanks to 10 bar (300 PSI).
On several of my boats, the tank is on the metal base and they heat, so I, completing the gas regulator, I add to them a gas attenuator :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arL10A6wsNo&t=49s
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2019, 09:48:20 PM »

Bonjour,
To minimize the effects of cooling in use, I am making large horizontal or vertical gas tanks and in addition I add a visible level:
https://youtu.be/aF4IRpIQbro


I enjoy your videos, but I wish there were English sub-titles.
On some of the camping burners you can turn the tank/canister upside down and draw liquid from the tank. I remember one of the designs in Model Boats by Peter Arnot I think, where he had two takeoffs on the tank ted together, each with a valve on to draw liquid from the bottom of the tank and the other drawing gas from the start. he started on gas then switched to liquid.  Gerald.
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2019, 10:01:55 PM »

Bonjour Gerald,
Many thanks for this kind message  :-))
For a reason I do not understand, YouTube offers English translations for Dutch subtitles but not for French ones  :(( 
Perhaps because we are not popular enough, and especially in this so confidential passion.
I try to speak slowly, so the French subtitles are supposed to be as correct as possible, but I recognize that it is not enough; I sincerely apologize. If you have any question on a video, never hesitate to post it, Google translator is my friend  ok2
 
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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derekwarner

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2019, 02:45:13 AM »

I do not complain Raphael.......interesting I am a member of the Red and the Blue French model boating WEB sites........I am sure you are also a member in both sites.....you know....KBIO, Claude, Rookie...........and another WEB site where two slightly scale plank in frame models of Seakadet
__________________________________



Also on the Paddleducks WEB, a member site name  = Hankwilliams [Thomas Hilderbrand from Germany], manufactures his own boilers and Custom Gas Tanks


One gas tank he has produced is silver soldered from 90 degree copper elbows and a few straight tubular sections to to form a large U shape.......web link below is a great read


http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7191.msg41698#msg41698
__________________________________

I type in English, and the WEB does the translation to French for other members....I set the machine to the auto translate French to English option


I know this is text only, but I do not see any subtitles embedded in your Videos


Derek
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Derek Warner

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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2019, 08:09:06 AM »

Bonjour Derek,
I know the French red blue forum but am not a member, I have choosen another one : http://www.bloooo.fr/forums/index.php
And thanks to your links, I discover this Paddlesucks site.

This gas tank is made of 2 mm copper by JMC who is a professional manifacturere as Anton : https://www.jmc-vapeur.fr/  I have bought lots of his boilers and tanks and I fully trust him.

In France, we have no regulation for toys but security is important !

About my videos, I apologize but I do not know why TouTube would translate automatically Dutch an not French. As I always say, thanks to Google translator, I always answer to questions written on my videos.

With several subscribers all over the world, I have created links all over the world and we also share our experience and adventures out of forums :-)) 

I would like to come to Australia (you have Mildura manufacturer) but not obvious... as you coming to Atlantica...

My major concern is that I do not build, I integrate and we have less and less builders or manufacturers as our passion does not interest younger people...
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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derekwarner

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2019, 10:46:02 AM »

Bonjour to yo too Raphael....... O0


From the the WEB site http://www.bloooo.fr/forums/index.php and see many members names from the other French steam/marine Groups


I understand the quality of JMC products..my purchase of a JMC3H engine directly from him some years ago confirms this ..never used yet


Your concern with fewer manufacturers offering goods in the market is understood....


[it is supply + demand = the $ sell price, then the acceptable buy price is determined by the manufacturer having sufficient batch lots to make a profit]  <*<


Derek
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Bernhard

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2019, 12:42:01 PM »

hi I have used this fore years works perfect

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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2019, 01:55:09 PM »

Bonjour,
Derek, the 3 cc JMC is a beast, I have one on my 1,35 m / 16 kilos San Julian 2  :-))  Do you know Mildura products https://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Miniature-Steam-Models-p1.html


Bernhard, where does your gas tank come from ?


Gerald, you evoked operation with the liquid phase gas, it is perfect in theory because the tank never freezes and the gas pressure is constant but as a big concern, it is much more difficult to install and to operate. 99% of the boats I see use gas phase, with the inconvenience we know.
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Raphaël
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Bernhard

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2019, 02:16:56 PM »

Hi top from Cleverdon
Under Macsteam .Mike
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southsteyne2

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2019, 09:25:02 AM »

I have seen twin gas tanks connected to a T and then to the burner  helps to reduce the freezingCheers
John
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2019, 04:52:45 PM »

Bonjour John,
You are right, this solution creates a large surface of calorie exchange, two medium tanks develop more than a large one.


To my opinion, the concerns are that you have to manage two tanks, because to fill both, you need to open both, this means more possible leak points, soldering the junction can be touchy, more weight and more room is needed, not obvious in a thin hull.


Here is what can be done when you have plenty of room : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Jsn97535w
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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Geoff

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2020, 01:47:07 PM »

For years to prevent this I have used the oil separator (sometimes erroneously called condenser) and this just touches the end of the gas tank. This works well in all weathers and once running I virtually never have any trouble. At the end of a 30 min run the gas talk is hand warm which is perfect. The only down side is before refilling I have to cool it in the pond to ensure your get a full fill as a warm tank takes less gas than a cold tank.


Cheers


Geoff
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pendlesteam

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 07:31:46 PM »

I have just had a gas burner returned by a customer as it would not perform correctly. I test every burner before despatch so if something is wrong it does not go out the door. After performing every test I have (which go far beyond what a burner in normal use would experience) I could not find even the slightest problem with the burner. It worked perfectly. The customer had done a very good job with boiler and gas tank and clearly understood the problems associated with cooling gas. He had routed the steam exhaust to wrap around the gas tank several times. There was even a pressure gauge fitted to the gas tank - not something I see often. The burner was recieving gas at a pressure too high for the jet to operate with the burner. The result was an extremely tall flame which gave off little heat. The moral behind this story is - dont over do the heating. Since the burner was good and the gas tank was not supplied by me I could only offer advice and return the burner.
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2020, 09:28:44 PM »

Bonjour Nigel,
I confirm, your burners are perfect  :-))


To prevent a too high pressure to the burner, I have taken the habit of installing a gas regulator ("détendeur" in French and I/we make the mistake "régulateur" / régulator instead of attenuator) as soon as the gas tank becomes warm, for example when located on the same metal plate close to the boiler (in this case, the gas taknk pressure raises to 5 bar when the steam plant beacomes hot after a while :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arL10A6wsNo&t=87s
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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pendlesteam

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2020, 06:21:43 AM »

Hi Raphael
Thank you for your endorsment. I had not thought about using a pressure regulator, but it makes good sense. Do you use an attenuator after the regulator. This woul be the perfect set up? Do you have plans fot the regulator - I would like to make one?
Regards
Nigel
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2020, 08:18:27 AM »

Bonour Nigel,
Yes, regulator or not, I always install except for exceptions an attenuator on my steam plants, you can guess it at the beginning of my video. Perhaps will you see it better on this other example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg
About plan, sorry, I do not build, but found this on the NET :
https://www.google.com/search?q=plan+d%C3%A9tendeur+gaz&sxsrf=ALeKk02UVVPuyv_f4ZLcYX7f7VsSTEqyMw:1582359199576&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=6HP_U-c8dGOFfM%253A%252CuKgdMvIsYGU20M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSG3b-B8peyr7_dqbzJbl5j8X5WBw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifr_2v2-TnAhUFz4UKHckBB1QQ9QEwAXoECAQQBw#imgrc=6HP_U-c8dGOFfM:
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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frazer heslop

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2020, 02:21:47 PM »

Malcom did a write up for one and may still have the drawings. He is a member on this site and Paddleducks
I have seen a French designed regulator only and think it was on this site just cannot find it {:-{  I think its in the Kindon boiler or Turbine section of the site
http://www.vapeur45.fr/
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frazer heslop

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2020, 02:34:42 PM »

Gas reugulator page 10 of these French engine drawings
http://www.john-tom.com/MiscrPlans/TwinJLS/TwinCylinderJLSweb.pdf


Im sure it is also available on the BloOOo forum but I have not been able to get on it for a week or so
cheers
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2020, 05:35:22 PM »

Bonjour Frazer,
You are right, there is a plan of gas attenuator  (régulateur) plan page 10 "régulateur gaz, Ensemble - Détails RG001" and is scale 1:1.


But I think that Nigel is looking for the plan of a gas regulator (détendeur)... Ah ! the langage barreer and its fake friends...
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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frazer heslop

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2020, 06:15:34 PM »

Bonjour rhavrane ,
                            Then he needs to contact Malcolm Beek as he designed a very good one that appeared in one of the model boats magazines late80s or early 90s but if anyone is building from the magazine the pictures have been printed in reverse from the negative
Also the body needs to be machined from brass/bronze not alloy as specified as it corrodes and the steam passageway soon becomes blocked
Also this link maybe of some use http://www.vapeur45.fr/turbine  go to KINDON burner and water pump
ce qui est arrivé à BloOOo Je n'arrive pas à me connecter au forum
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2020, 07:08:59 PM »

Bonjour Frazer,
Thanks for the information.

Besides this, I have called the administrator of BloOOo because his forum is broken since a few weeks, bad luck fo us, it is not a problem from his provider, he does not know where the bug is and he has no backup version to restore... {:-{ Let's wait and see with the fingers crossed ...
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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frazer heslop

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2020, 10:30:28 PM »

Hello Raphael, thank you for the info, I am following the Lanz Bulldog tractor build I have the book but it is German and my German is far poorer than my French if that is possible
I had read they were doing some work on the forum so will just have to be patient

Keep well
Frazer
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rhavrane

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Re: Large custom gas tanks
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2020, 06:55:32 AM »

Bonjour Frazer,
You have been listened, BloOOo is back http://www.bloooo.fr/forums/index.php :-)) :-)) :-))
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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