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[GG]

There can occasionally be something of a debate (although some clearly might try to move it in the heated argument zone!) about what constitutes "Scratch Building" in our hobby.  I've tried to come up with my own definition of this term and, I'll confess, failed to produce anything totally satisfactory.  So, turning to that font of all knowledge - Wikipedia, tried to find something better.


The first thing discovered was, with a touch of paraphrasing, "Scratch building is the process of building a model from raw materials rather than a commercial kit of parts".  Which is probably quite close to what most people would agree with, but it doesn't define just what "raw materials" are.


A little more searching and another site, admittedly for our Aeromodelling cousins, gave with some paraphrasing again, the following;


Scratch Building - drawing up an building an original model from your own plans


Plan Building - building from a plan of a model


Kit Building - building from a model kit


Assembling - Building with commercially available parts requiring minimal work before using


This might appear to be a shade more contentious in that to claim to have scratch built a model, you have to draw up your own design for the model.  Before anyone jumps in to shout "so building a scale model using plans of the full size vessel isn't scratch building then?", this is of course nonsense.  Plans of a full size vessel are exactly that, from which the scratch builder has to create the models structure that will represent the full size in a 3D miniature form, which is rarely a simple and easy task.  This will be appreciated by anyone who has tried to build from "model plans" which are basically scale drawings of a vessel with little,if any, model construction details.


To simply categorise all models built using a commercial kit as "Kit built" is restrictive.  True, if you have just followed the kit instructions to the letter and produced a model that is a perfect match to the one on the kit box illustration, then it might be OK.  But, many modellers use a kit as the basis for modifying and adding extra items which surely merits some acknowledgement?  Indeed, some models are so altered that it is hard to believe they started out as a commercial kit.  And, to be honest, some kits are so flawed that the only way to produce an acceptable final model is to modify it!


The last one, Assembling, might cause some upset.  I think most would agree that this includes the RTR (Ready To Run) and ARTR (Almost RTR) models.  Where the only challenge after opening the box it came in might be which way to install the batteries?


Another problem is where does the modeller who used laser and/or CNC machining to fabricate parts fit into this scheme.  Clearly, if they have designed and made the parts themselves then they are scratch building.  But, if they have used someone else to design and/or make the parts, then what do we call this, Subcontracted Building?  A similar problem seems to occur with 3D printing.  Doing all the design and printing yourself ought to be scratch building but otherwise...?


The boundaries between known/unknown or more correctly in this case agreed/disagreed regions are usually interesting places to be.  One perennial problem is that new ideas or techniques are often moving boundaries, which inevitably upsets someone's long cherished beliefs.


Hopefully, modellers can be flexible in their thinking and accommodate these changes.  After all, for most people this hobby is a welcome distraction from the more serious problems in the world today.
Glynn Guest
 
   

[petermun]

Glyn, what is the definition of semi-scratch?  Pete

[GG]

petermun.
                Neither one thing nor the other.




Glynn Guest

[Netleyned]

Glyn, what is the definition of semi-scratch?  Pete

You don't have to plant the tree.
Just cut it down, Season the timber
and cut to size. 
Ned

[GG]

Ah...... I wondered how long it would be before someone came up with the "cut a tree down and make your own planks" thing?


This was never going to be an easy subject to offer answers to and here's the best definition of Scratch Building I can come up with;


"A working scratch built model boat is one which is created, except for items needed for propulsion, control and associated effects, from materials which gave no clear indication of what there final use was to be"


Thus, using a commercially made anchor would not be scratch building, but using a ready made chain, which could be used in jewelry, mechanisms, etc for the anchor chain would be.


Not a perfect definition I'll admit and those so inclined can poke lots of holes in it.  This I have no problem with provided their criticisms lead to improvements.


I suspect that few models are totally scratch built so maybe some allowance can be made for a few visible commercially made items.  Exactly how far this could go is the question?


Glynn Guest

[Colin Bishop]

Does it really matter these days though? When there were a lot of competitions it was important to have definitions to establish how much work the builders had put into the model in order to be able to allocate marks fairly.

But now, boat modellers in general, with a few exceptions, are simply not interested in putting their models up for judging plus, as is evident from what has already been said, the advance of technology has vastly complicated any efforts to draw up rules.

How do you compare the situation where someone has used a computer to design a fitting in 3D and then had it printed out by a commercial organisation that specialises in such work from one where the builder has taken a plan or drawing (designed by somebody else) and then hand built the object? That way madness lies....

Some people like a bit of 'one upmanship' of course such as the chap who proudly declared he was constructing a scratch built kit. He clearly thought that sticking the supplied bits together constituted 'scratch building'

And of course many of us can't really be pigeonholed anyway. I have always considered myself to be a 'scratchbuilder' in the traditional sense yet most of my recent models have been kits. These days when building my own models I'm happy to incorporate commercial items if they meet the specification simply because life is becoming shorter with advancing age and it is more important to me to build a unique model such as my ongoing liner project (not anuvver Titanic!) than to spend hours crafting cowl vents that I can buy off the shelf and add a bit more detail where appropriate. But just my  personal take on things.

Colin

[john44]

I have just completed a 1/16th scale Bluebird of Chelsea built from a plan, plank on frame etc
I had to hand build many of the parts for this particular boat but if that scale parts were available
I would have bought them. I did enjoy making the parts but as Colin said time consuming
I did manage to get some parts to scale eg ships wheels, searchlights, dingy.
So built from a plan using a few commercially built bits I cannot say it was scratch built, I could not
Care less what the (rivet) counters out there would class my boat as,I am happy with the
Results. That is my personal opinion.


John

[ChrisF]

All of my builds are virtually scratch built. I say virtually because some of the detailing will be carried out using commercially made parts.

I agree that new technology complicates descriptions. For me personally, I don't think that producing parts by 3D printing, even if you have produced the drawings, can really be described as scratch building. To be scratch built I say that it has to be made by hand. In this I include using power tools and lathes etc. where the builder is operating them and dependant on skill the result will be good, average or bad etc. With 3D printing, once the drawing has been produced, the whole process is undertaken by the computer and printer with no control or skill from the builder and the result should be perfect and repeatable.

If this means that no-one can call their models scratch built if using 3D printed parts then so be it. And that will include me as I shall probably use that technology at some point. Particularly as increasingly more and more files are being made available for you to print out.

As said, technology keeps moving on.

Chris   

[Colin Bishop]

I say that it has to be made by hand.

So what about the tried and trusted practice of adapting items made for some other purpose to add detail to your model?

I have used toy gun one shot pistol caps to represent fire buckets, small ball bearings as compass correctors, metal jewellery rings and eyelets as portholes. I often use vinyl lining tape rather than painting boot topping. And I still have a selection of wheels, gears and sprockets from model tank kits which are very useful if you are making winches or windlasses.

The problem is that nobody can decree a defininitive description of 'scratchbuilding' because there isn't one. We may have our own opinions but who is to say where the boundaries lie, it's a moving feast and different for everyone so rather pointless to argue about it as has already been done on more than one occasion on here in years gone by.

Colin

[grendel]

I would consider any parts I 3d printed to be scratch built as i will have taken the hours necessary to draw them up in the first place, some parts would be impossible to reproduce by traditional hand building, my 3d printer is just another tool, such as the modelling knife, or the bandsaw, for converting material in one form, to another form, ie the shape of the finished component, as i also measured the full size boat, and drew up my own plans from scratch, using the same computer software as i use for the 3d printer. how about people who use a laser cutter to cut out their parts?

[DaveM]

The things that seem to matter most to the 'lay' folk who comment on one of my models are

1. Where did I buy it?
2. How much did it cost?
3. Is it plastic?
4. How fast will it go?

Trivial, I know, but more sensible than "Did you make the mould for the hull?" or "Aren't those mooring cleats 3D-printed?".
I would resent being regarded as a member of any particular "modelling tribe" - even if I gave a tinker's cuss. I'm with Admiral Bishop one this one - it just isn't relevant any longer.
Dave M
 

[redpmg]

Agree with Dave -  its now irrelevant to most - also it gets a bit like equations in "Economics" - only "science" in the world you can use one equation to solve for three unknowns - (no wonder Economists use phrases like "on the other hand"). The big thing is it is of little interest to the "Instant Coffee"generation - only another modeller or someone into full size boat-building/ furniture making etc  would appreciate the difference or indeed appreciate how much work has had to be done to get to the finished article. It shows in the kind of questions Dave highlights.........I use a laser to cut simple commercial model kits for kids which I have "designed" - but have had to use a drawing or photo of the original to start with. Also make 3 accurate 1/18scale models in 3mm MDF - a Willy's Jeep . SWB Series 1 Land-Rover- and a Suzuki 410 Jeep all developed from makers type drawings which are sold only as finished items. What would you classify those two types as ???????? We are all in this model boat hobby for enjoyment and indeed I am one of those who would not wish to compete - I enjoyed the Model shows in England for the variety of ideas fellow modellers came up with - was stunned at the rowboat with the skeleton crew for instance....... And even if some of the models were not perfect they all had life .............

[ChrisF]

For some reason a big chunk of my post has disappeared! Colin was able to copy part of it though before it did. It doesn't make much sense now.

Part of what I said is that I don't have a problem with using power tools and lathes etc. if they are controlled by hand as the result still depends on the skill of the operator. Whereas with 3D printing once the drawing has been produced (which does require some skill/mastery of computer software) the production of the part is entirely carried out by the computer and the printer without requiring any skill from the builder and should be pretty much perfect and repeatable. So my own personal view is that 3D printing is not scratch building. Would a whole boat 3D printed be able to be called scratch building if you had produced the drawings? Would a CNC machine producing metal parts be described as scratch building?


Adapting small parts I would say is scratch building as again it is done by hand.


I'm actually wondering, that even though I produce my own drawings, that I can call my modelling scratch built at all. Reason being that I'm using a drawing progam. I am capable of producing the drawings by hand, as scratch builders of old used to, but use the PC for speed, carrying out alterations, printing out myself etc.



In the end though, as said it doesn't matter much nowadays as technology has moved the game on and we all do what we want to produce the model that we want and to get satisfaction from the hobby.

Chris

[grendel]

I feel as much time can be spent modelling a part in a 3d program as you would spend hand making it, I have produced parts that would be impossible by any other method, a curved hole through a shaft, you can drill a straight hole, but getting a circular hole that bends within the thickness of the shaft is a different matter

[Netleyned]

Back in the 60's I built a model of HMS Cossack in
the Sonar Instrument Space on HMS Eagle.
My workshop!
Most of the upper deck fittings were cobbled
together from bits in the drawers in the main
electronics workshop.
Built from a plan from balsa for the Hull and
bits of paxolin, sealed with insulating varnish
for motor windings. Never thought of that as
Scratch building. In my seventies I admire anyone
that come to the lake with something they have
built be it museum quality or less and sails it and
enjoys the moment. I enjoy the pristine models
at shows, but a scruffy old homemade  boat
controlled by a grandkid puts a greater smile
on my face.
Ned

[ChrisF]

I feel as much time can be spent modelling a part in a 3d program as you would spend hand making it, I have produced parts that would be impossible by any other method, a curved hole through a shaft, you can drill a straight hole, but getting a circular hole that bends within the thickness of the shaft is a different matter

Not disputing that Grendel, but it's not scratch building is it. If I produce an artistic type drawing on the PC and print it out I can't say that I've drawn/painted it as in a line drawing, watercolour etc. it's a computer generated image, which is what 3D printing is really.


Even the roughest "draughtsman" can produce a perfect part, so you don't even have to be able to draw well.


If competition was still an important aspect of shows like it was years ago then there would have to be a new class for 3D printed.


Chris

[Colin Bishop]

Dave,

I addition to your listed comments:
1. Where did I buy it?
2. How much did it cost?
3. Is it plastic?
4. How fast will it go?

You missed one important one

'Get that thing off the pond at once, it's frightening the wildlife and I'm reporting you to the Council!'

Colin

[Subculture]

Ah yes, the poor terrified ducks who look like they couldn't care less, or perhaps a devastated newt. Some people out there seem to have a real beef on anyone doing any activity in parks beyond walking or sport.

With regards to building and competitions/judging etc. perhaps the question is- will there be enough warm bodies in ten to fifteen years time to put on any kind of display, let alone a competition?

I'm personally noticing the thinning of models at existing shows, and many exhibitions have fizzled out completely.

[DaveM]

Dave,

I addition to your listed comments:
1. Where did I buy it?
2. How much did it cost?
3. Is it plastic?
4. How fast will it go?

You missed one important one

'Get that thing off the pond at once, it's frightening the wildlife and I'm reporting you to the Council!'

Colin

Admiral
I'm spoiled rotten. There's no wildlife where I sail..... http://www.papplewickpumpingstation.org.uk/
...and no club officials or silly rules either. I just wish the weather was always as good as it was when these pictures were taken.
DM

[Colin Bishop]

Ah, yes, a long time since my visit during MPBA Scale Final days - I'm sure I still have the photos somewhere and it was sunny too.

Colin

[ChrisF]

Dave - It's great that a place like that allows model boats. Must admit when I go to National Trust properties that have lakes I often think what a lovely place it would be to sail model boats. No chance of course.

Chris

[roycv]

Hi all, I have been at the sharp end as club Secretary in the scratch or not arguments.  We used to have the National judges come in to our exhibition and decide on awarding (or not) trophies etc each year.  We have not done this for 5 years now as there are fewer models being built in the society and there is more of a will to operate a model without any regatta buoys.

Our old award definitions were for everything being scratch built that was 20 years ago and on the boating side many were made from kits.  With some help I revised the rules to suit what members were building.  Which seemed the sensible way to go.  This met with opposition from our locomotive group who all considered themselves in the scratchbuild fraternity.  At one session I asked how many had built their own boilers, not one!  So we went forward with phrases like "Assembled or constructed by the builder". 

Strangely many of the sailing boats were scratch built until we had lots of GRP hulls available.  One scratch built yacht, a Panache from Vic Smeed plans caught the judges eye, it had a working wheel linked to the rudder but what they liked was the splendid paint job.. There were 6 wide perfect sloped paint stripes about 2 inches wide in different colours along the sides and he got the trophy.

About 10 years later the builder was reminiscing about the building of a couple of yachts.  The gentleman concerned was a senior engineer in British Leyland and he casually said to me.  "you know that Panache, well that was in the paint shop for over a week before those guys could get it right"!

 I agree in the general line from this thread that it really does not matter that much.  Perhaps it is the "Image culture" rubbing off as very little in this world is what it seems to be. 

This however, is not to deny my total admiration of a Billings Mary Ann in the Luton club with a beautifully planked hull varnished to perfection and on show.  We can be judgemental in admiration but anything else is just an opinion.
One point though and that is that with trophies available within the society I do believe the standards of model building and detail improved some good models into excellent ones.  Frequently showing the builder to have a good eye for the model concerned and thinking about how to best present it.  I am afraid an excellent model sitting on a bit of sponge and wood will not be at its best.

Regards Roy
P.S. I like your thinking Netleyned!

[ballastanksian]

Just enjoy your hobby however you practice it and be content.

[Dreadnought]

Just enjoy your hobby however you practice it and be content.

I totally agree with you.
To many people worry about this or that just have fun! 

Life is to short! lol 

[grendel]

Not disputing that Grendel, but it's not scratch building is it. If I produce an artistic type drawing on the PC and print it out I can't say that I've drawn/painted it as in a line drawing, watercolour etc. it's a computer generated image, which is what 3D printing is really.


Even the roughest "draughtsman" can produce a perfect part, so you don't even have to be able to draw well.


If competition was still an important aspect of shows like it was years ago then there would have to be a new class for 3D printed.


Chris

as an ex drawing office manager, that is one point I would dispute, i have seen some real rubbish drawn up, and creating a printable 3d model is not as easy as that, one tiny error and you have a non enclosed object that will fail to print properly.

i see a good 3d object, and can appreciate the work that has gone into its construction.

unless the draughtsman gets every line accurately placed and joined the elements of the design wont be able to be made into solids, i have seen drawings where dimensions were a hindsight and fudged to make them work.

there is a whole new branch of computer generated art out there, where the artist has replaced the easel and brush for the colour palette and mouse, yet it is still the product of a human mind and skilful hands, 3d printing is just another way for the human hand to output the finished product.

that said its a moot point as my models are scratch built using whatever comes to hand, and yet they were never made to be entered into any competition, they are built for the challenge of building them, and the fun of using them, one currently has had as much of the model as possible made from burmese teak, supplied by the owner of the real boat, that was part of the boat that was replaced during maintenance, to me this is more important as it then links the model to the real boat in a way nothing else could.

dont think by my comments that I am attacking your views, you are welcome to look upon things any way you like, i just think that taking the time and trouble to accurately model a part in cad takes as much research and time as it would to hand build the same part, its still a skill, just a different one.

my background in CAD tells me that a lot of people must struggle with the design aspect of 3d printing, many would just hunt down a part on the internet, if you wish to fairly judge a 3d printed part, you would need to ask first if the person had done the cad design, or just downloaded someone elses work.

for example, on my boats the fenders are all 3d printed, but I could have downloaded a file to print them, or bought commercially available ones, instead i took the hour or so to research the dimensions and draw up the file myself, as i wanted them to be my work.

now I can get a flexible media for my printer, i might try reprinting one to see if it would have the right resilience to work properly, who knows