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Author Topic: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS  (Read 3153 times)

narrowboater

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THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« on: December 06, 2019, 03:34:58 pm »

Hi there,
Does anyone know if a decent sized and detailed kit of HMS Queen Elizabeth/HMS Prince of Wales is being produced? Airfix don't seem to be interested,  the Tamiya agents say getting a licence (?)  will take too long and Trumpeter haven't answered?


I find it very strange that no-one seems to already have a kit out, particularly before the lucrative Christmas market. Some plans, specs and images have been available for years. Many years ago when I was stationed at Bovington Camp, the Tank Museum had kits of the Chieftain Tank for sale and it was still on the secret list and under evaluation.


Yes, I know,  I could scratch build one, but I am not that good. I do want to build one modified for radio control but I'm afraid I need a starting point - if you follow me.


Anyone know anyone who is making a kit?
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Allnightin

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 04:27:11 pm »

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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 08:22:29 pm »

Airfix are in an awkward position regarding these carriers in my humble opinion..If the produce a 1/350 kit, it will have to be in the £140 to £180 price bracket due to the sheer size of the beasts. I base my pricing on their big 1/24 modern kits and the approximate price of similar kits from Trumpeter. you can discount Tamiyas Enterprise from this little exercise as the toolings have been about for the best part of thirty years, so no up front costs involved. Will it sell? Over the lifespan of the carriers, of course it will, and they will get their money back. But can they afford that sort of up front investment in something that, lets be honest, isn't their core product line?
Plan B; 1/700 scale...nope, don't even go there! Airfix have almost never touched this scale and have no experience producing their own product at this scale. Everyone else has more experience at producing the finer scale models down at this size, let Trumpeter or one of the more specialist manufacturers cover them at this scale.
Plan C; 1/600........! Some old 'die hards' have campaigned for new 1/600 scale models. Problem is it is a dead scale, only covered by at best a dozen ancient moulds. Don't do it.
So, it is all down to 1/350 and if we will stump up the cash..will we? I am glad I don't have to make that decision, cos if it was me  I would tool up a Type 26 and Type 31, licence box Trumpeters Type 23s and Astute class subs, do another run of Type 45s, then start working back through the Falklands conflict..all those lovely variations of Leanders and Rothsays, getting to the old 1970s Ark Royal, and stop there....not too expensive or a gamble surely? :-))
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narrowboater

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2019, 11:52:20 am »

Thanks for your replies guys. I did suspect that 'payback' was the main reason that Airfix don't seem interested in producing a 1/350 scale kit. I still think it is short-sighted of them as they will sell over the long term and if they are the first manufacturer to bring out one of these kits they would get an immediate return both in sales and 'cudos'. I have no idea what the set-up costs would be, nor how long the process takes. Unfortunately they have already missed the Christmas market. I take the point that at 1/350 scale this would be a big kit but that is the ideal size to be able to super-detail and also be able to have working lifts etc. As to cost, if it was a good, highly detailed kit I would be prepared to pay £140 - £150 for it. Considering the cost of other large scale kits it is not too bad -is it??
Anyway, we just have to wait and see, I have emailed Airfix to express my interest in one of these kits as posted by Allnightin. I would urge everyone to do the same, it is not a commitment to buy one but you never know - you might be tempted!!!
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phil_parker

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 02:56:52 pm »

Tooling for the 1:24 Hellcat was north of of £100,000. I'd guess that as the carrier model would be larger, you would be looking at at least this.

Coupled with the lower sales of ships compared to aircraft, I can't see it happening soon."Kudos" is lovely, but it doesn't please the bank manager.
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Netleyned

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 04:16:23 pm »

1970s Ark Royal
Wot no Eagle??
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modboat

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2019, 12:19:11 pm »

Having done a bit of plastic magic, I would love to see a kit from Airfix for £140-£150 ish especially on our own Royal Navy . Considering the amount of kit manufacturers dwindling year on year where can you get a detailed kit of this size for that money. However as a business owner we have to make these decisions and much of it is a gamble.
I have seen some good kits over the years Model Slipway in my opinion were/are the best, mountfleet, mobile marine, Metcalf, speedline, models by design all have high place of regard but 50% of the above are gone or slowing down. But in our club we have a very skilled model maker that make the plastic kits stand out and are amazing.
So whether it is plastic or composite as long as it is another kit on the market I am all for it. I would definitely buy one.
Finally I do not think it is always the kit but the marketing that makes success of a kit. When was the last time Airfix advertised in Model Boats.?


Happy Christmas to all and especially to all at Mayhem for a first class communication forum in our brilliant hobby!!!!!!!!!



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narrowboater

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2019, 03:07:06 pm »

You are thinking on the same lines as me modboat. The Royal Navy is a shadow of what it used to be so why not celebrate what we have got with a kit of the newest additions to the fleet.
I realise it is not cheap to produce a decent sized kit,  nor can it be done overnight  but the marketing department at Airfix need a kick up the backside.  Just think of the marketing opportunities they have missed with these ships:
The announcement of the building of them  (3+++ years ago).
The actual building and the TV programmes about it.
The launch of  HMS Queen Elizabeth.
The  sea trials and Commissioning of HMS Queen Elizabeth.
The same for HMS Prince Of Wales.


As you say,  compared with other manufacturers large scale kits, £140 - £150 is acceptable and I would certainly buy one. I do hope that Airfix will take the risk and produce a 1/350 scale kit (Two kits in one really). I am sure they would sell given the right publicity. At that scale the after-market people would be interested and then think what a terrific model it would make.


A very Happy Christmas and New Year to everyone. What models is Santa going to bring you - if you've been good that is!?
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modboat

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2019, 04:54:54 pm »

See page 64 Model Boats Vol 831 Jan
Airfix show the Kit and if avail my smile would be bigger than his!!!!!!!!!



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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2019, 05:08:20 pm »

One begins to wonder if the two ships will make it through the announced comprehensive defence review. The Army really hates them. I think the RAF are more ambivalent as they share the F35s although if the carriers are decommissioned then they would have the aircraft all to themselves but presumably not so many. Would they want that Nick?

Colin
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phil_parker

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2019, 08:06:49 pm »

Finally I do not think it is always the kit but the marketing that makes success of a kit. When was the last time Airfix advertised in Model Boats.?
Possibly more due to MB not covering the plastic kit market until a few months ago. If they aren't writing for your customers, then you don't bother shelling out for adverts. Now things have changed, I wonder what we will see?
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phil_parker

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2019, 08:13:17 pm »

You are thinking on the same lines as me modboat. The Royal Navy is a shadow of what it used to be so why not celebrate what we have got with a kit of the newest additions to the fleet.
I realise it is not cheap to produce a decent sized kit,  nor can it be done overnight  but the marketing department at Airfix need a kick up the backside.  Just think of the marketing opportunities they have missed with these ships:
The announcement of the building of them  (3+++ years ago).
The actual building and the TV programmes about it.
The launch of  HMS Queen Elizabeth.
The  sea trials and Commissioning of HMS Queen Elizabeth.
The same for HMS Prince Of Wales.


As you say,  compared with other manufacturers large scale kits, £140 - £150 is acceptable and I would certainly buy one. I do hope that Airfix will take the risk and produce a 1/350 scale kit (Two kits in one really). I am sure they would sell given the right publicity. At that scale the after-market people would be interested and then think what a terrific model it would make.
That would be the same Airfix currently showing a model at the IPMS as seen in Model Boats?
It's easy to say you would buy one, but what happens when the price is over £200 as it is for the Trumpeter Bismark? They would need to sell a LOT of kits to see a return on the £100k+ investment required to get this thing to market.

Airfix know what they are doing. They will have a far more realistic idea of numbers that can sell and the real size of the market. That's probably why they are showing something to gauge real interest . There will be plenty of people who want one but strangely absent when it's time to hand over money, there always is.
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kinmel

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2019, 08:50:52 pm »

One begins to wonder if the two ships will make it through the announced comprehensive defence review. The Army really hates them. I think the RAF are more ambivalent as they share the F35s although if the carriers are decommissioned then they would have the aircraft all to themselves but presumably not so many. Would they want that Nick?

Colin
I think they were only ordered to create employment in politically important places, note that the contracts were written so they could not be cancelled by a later government.   If the intention had been serious they would have also ordered the necessary ships to protect them.
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raflaunches

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2019, 08:52:49 pm »

One begins to wonder if the two ships will make it through the announced comprehensive defence review. The Army really hates them. I think the RAF are more ambivalent as they share the F35s although if the carriers are decommissioned then they would have the aircraft all to themselves but presumably not so many. Would they want that Nick?

Colin


I think that considering the global blue water navy that the government has been proposing for the last few years I donít think the carriers will be decommissioned as part of any defence restructuring even if the army are against them. Regarding the F35 program I think if the worst case scenario of them decommissioning the carriers (which I canít see happening ever) the RAF would receive all the purchased aircraft -all 135 of them. They canít afford to cancel them as they would only have Typhoon as a fast jet aircraft which is now really capable but we have always had a minimum of two types of Ďfighter jetí in service just in case.
If anything I can see the military budget being enhanced considering the cuts from the 2010 SDR virtually destroyed naval strike and maritime protection capabilities of both the RN and RAF. The recent one in 2015 started the rebuild but hope the 2020 SDR will ensure the procurement of more aircraft, ships and vehicles.
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Nick B

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narrowboater

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2019, 10:02:56 pm »

That was a rather negative response Phil. No government in their right minds will decommision the carriers in the short term,  no matter which government it is in the future. Mothball one possibly but I doubt it.
Are you saying that a model kit shouldn't be made at all?
As for the cost to buy - If a kit is detailed enough and well made, yes, I would pay £200+. It would be a big chunk out of my savings but in this case hopefully worth it.  The reason I haven't bought the Trumpeter Bismark is not the cost just that there are loads of Bismark models out there.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2019, 10:04:26 pm »

Nick,

I hope you are right. Just can't tell these days. Current politicians are not very well up on defence issues.

Kinmel, yes there was certainly a political 'make work' element in their construction which slowed completion and made them more expensive than they need have been. Looked at objectively, for their size they are quite economical to operate compared with the US carriers, requiring much smaller crews.

My understanding was that the RN gambled on opting for the two ships on the basis that once constructed the necessary escorts would also need to be built but so far that hasn't happened.  Successive govenments have simply been unwilling to fund the armed services to the extent that many people would consider to be prudent.

It's a bit like the interwar period with the ten year rule which assumed that there would be no war for at least ten years and which was rolled forward year after year while the forces were run down in the meantime. It's always easy to put defence on the back burner in favour of more immediate priorities but not alway wise as history shows.

There has been much talk of multi mach missiles from China and Russia being impossible to defend against but I have yet to hear how an incoming missile at mach 9 can be accurately targeted. At thet speed the slightest deviation would see it missing by miles.

Colin
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kinmel

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2019, 10:50:06 pm »


There has been much talk of multi mach missiles from China and Russia being impossible to defend against but I have yet to hear how an incoming missile at mach 9 can be accurately targeted. At thet speed the slightest deviation would see it missing by miles.

Colin
At the speed they will reach their target, how large is the area of destruction ? It may be miles.
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phil_parker

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2019, 10:54:25 pm »

That was a rather negative response Phil. No government in their right minds will decommision the carriers in the short term,  no matter which government it is in the future. Mothball one possibly but I doubt it.
Are you saying that a model kit shouldn't be made at all?
As for the cost to buy - If a kit is detailed enough and well made, yes, I would pay £200+. It would be a big chunk out of my savings but in this case hopefully worth it.  The reason I haven't bought the Trumpeter Bismark is not the cost just that there are loads of Bismark models out there.
I didn't mention the decommissioning or otherwise of these ships - no idea why you think I did. Nor did I say the model shouldn't be produced.

My point is that no matter how much anyone wants a kit, it's going to come down to commercial realities. If the model will make money then it will appear. If not, it won't. I don't expect a manufacturer to bankrupt themselves to produce a model. I also know that they will have a better idea of the market that any of us.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2019, 09:03:03 am »

Quote
At the speed they will reach their target, how large is the area of destruction ? It may be miles.

I'd have thought that the size of the bang at the end would not be dependent on the speed of the missile but on the warhead size.

At Mach 9 the targeting will probably need to be pinpoint precise from well over the horizon since at that speed there is little scope for course correction on the final approach.

Colin
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Tug Fanatic

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2019, 12:09:40 pm »

I'd have thought that the size of the bang at the end would not be dependent on the speed of the missile but on the warhead size.

At Mach 9 the targeting will probably need to be pinpoint precise from well over the horizon since at that speed there is little scope for course correction on the final approach.

Colin


I don't believe that there would be much need for course corrections. An aircraft carrier is hardly going to be executing high g course changes and at that speed flight times will be short. I agree with the Russian Admiral who said (I paraphrase) that it was a nice big juicy easy to hit target. I have no facts but I would guess that radar (an AWACS can do this from very long range) or satellite identified & located targeting would be used. Mach 9 is only 1mile/sec.

If UK Chiefs thought that going for the aircraft carriers meant that it would force the building of lots of other nice new ships that they would otherwise not get then the need **********ing (choose your own word).

The F35's are not exactly problem free either.

What a colossal waste of money signed off on the last day of a government also precluding any cancellation.
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raflaunches

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2019, 12:29:34 pm »

You should see the new Mach 5 capable rocket engines that are currently being developed for the RAF called Sabre (this months RAF Newspaper). As we found out in the Falklands missile defence doesnít always work and bullets are cheaper to make and manufacture. A grouping of bullets from a CWIS will still stop a missile even if itís travelling at Mach 9 as the results are the same. One of the rounds fired from several thousand will hit the missile and either down it or cause it to tumble out of control. Simple physics.
As for more ships, look at the new proposals for the Marines littoral attack ships being drawn up to replace HMS Ocean. Very powerful and simple designs incorporating all the lessons learned from amphibious assaults over the last 50 years.
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Nick B

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derekwarner

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2019, 01:02:46 pm »

Something is note quite correct here %)


1. hypersonic - ionospheric missile fired at computer set, earthly co-ordinates......reaches Mach 8 or 9 ~~~ 25 km/second
2. radar signals outbound & inbound travel at 300,000 km/second providing computer input to correct the tradectory of the missile
3. radar signals are from the missile to a satellite in space, then back to the earth based missiles computer


All is plausible based upon mathematics & technology, however the computers [continual] error corrections for the designated target must be transferred to the steering system of the missile


So I think your new RN Carriers will be pretty safe, as if the Ruskies fired such a missile toward the Carrier at anchor in Plymouth, they would probably have a 50/50 chance of hitting Spain...... {-)


Just a note for NickB.........I do agree in the operational attributes, but have they fitted the Raytheon CIWS systemsto HMS RO8 yet?


Derek


https://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/missile-threat-and-proliferation/missile-basics/hypersonic-missiles/

 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2019, 01:23:07 pm »

I think you have missed my point a bit. If you are targeting a single ship from maybe 500+ miles away just how accurate is that going to be? Satellites can be blocked or unable to penetrate heavy cloud. And you still have to predict to within a few hundred yards exactly where the ship will be when the missile arrives, much easier said than done. Is the missile under internal guidance or controlled externally? In the latter case the target may see the controlling vehicle.

It certainly sounds as if the Zircon is a potent missile but how much is fact and how much fiction remains to be seen. The Russians will talk it up, but so will the Americans to get extra funding for missile defence.

The RN carriers do seem to be extravagant in many respects at first sight but exactly the same arguments were made when the Invincibles were building. There were serious proposals to sell at least one to Australia - and then we had the Falklands war. The Invincibles were very useful over their service lives and proved to be versatile but they were cramped ships and really too small in many ways. Yet their crew complement, excluding the air group, was still significantly more than the new carriers which have a high degree of automation. Crew costs are a major element in overall running costs.

As always, things are not always what they first appear to be once you start getting into the detail but the meeja overlook that of course.

HMS Ocean was kept on in preference to HMS Illustrious in the defence cuts as although she was not built to Naval standards her size and versatility made her more useful for a variety of assignments. HMS PoW is being completed to offer flexibility in its use and QE may be retrofitted similarly.

In the past the RN has always been bedevilled by building ships too small for the job which cannot be upgraded and need to be replaced instead. The Darings were built to a decent size but somebody decided to make 'savings' by reducing the planned generating capacity so half of them are now laid up waiting to have the hulls cut open and extra machinery installed which will cost vastly more than an original fit out plus the ships are out of action in the meantime.

Colin

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Tug Fanatic

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2019, 01:24:00 pm »

Something is note quite correct here %)


1. hypersonic - ionospheric missile fired at computer set, earthly co-ordinates......reaches Mach 8 or 9 ~~~ 25 km/second
2. radar signals outbound & inbound travel at 300,000 km/second providing computer input to correct the tradectory of the missile
3. radar signals are from the missile to a satellite in space, then back to the earth based missiles computer


All is plausible based upon mathematics & technology, however the computers [continual] error corrections for the designated target must be transferred to the steering system of the missile


So I think your new RN Carriers will be pretty safe, as if the Ruskies fired such a missile toward the Carrier at anchor in Plymouth, they would probably have a 50/50 chance of hitting Spain...... {-)


Just a note for NickB.........I do agree in the operational attributes, but have they fitted the Raytheon CIWS systemsto HMS RO8 yet?


Derek

We are both wrong I think. Mach 9 is 3km or 1.85mls per second. I would still back the missile to have a significant chance of getting through and I suspect that it could be accurately targeted. How confident are you that it couldn't and what is the highest probability of it (or any one of several) getting through that would be acceptable? The chances of a missile getting through must be lower with a full US battle group protecting the carrier than the UK navy effort.
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garethjones35

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2019, 02:26:13 pm »

The potential for these new missiles to damage or destroy their targets will also depend on the warheads.
Many years ago now I attended an RAeS lecture on the Buccaneer, given by Air Cdre Graham Pitchfork.  He was an RAF officer but did an exchange tour with the navy in the early days of the Buccaneer's development for the RN and went on to command the first RAF Buccaneer squadron about 10 years later.  He described the original planned role of the carrier-borne aircraft as attacking the heavily armed Russian Sverdlov class cruisers.  A member of the audience queried the ability of the Buccaneer to hit a target with a long toss attack which was the primary mode of weapon delivery at the time.  Graham Pitchfork replied that 'they were not planning to blast a few holes in the ships with 1000 lb bombs - they were going to vaporize the buggers'
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