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Author Topic: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS  (Read 3152 times)

kinmel

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2019, 02:45:16 pm »

Looking at what is happening to tankers in the Strait of Hamuz, those hypersonic missiles may already be out of date.
The D45 destroyers should be able to track and destroy 200 targets simultaneously, you can create a larger swarm of drones for much less money than one of these new missiles. Very small and very agile, they are hard to stop.

You don't have to sink it with the first strike, as shown with the Bismark you just have to stop it.
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SailorGreg

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2019, 03:18:01 pm »

According to Wikipedia, the Zircon is 10m long and carries a 300-400 kg warhead.  This is not a small missile.  I assumed it would carry a conventional radar homing head, but the Wiki article suggests that at Mach 9 there would be a plasma cloud around the front of the missile.  That would greatly degrade microwave transmission and reception, good for stealth (defensive radars would have difficulty detecting the missile) but poor for the missile tracking a ship.  However, I guess that there must be some integral terminal guidance as third party targeting at that speed would be flaky to say the least. But what is it?

As for CIWS defence, given the engagement range of CIWS and the speed of the missile, you might as well throw a handful of gravel at it.  You have about 1 second from initial engagement to impact.  Even if a remarkably lucky hit detonated the warhead, you still have several tons of debris travelling extremely fast, including some very large bits like the scramjet engine, coming inboard.  Ouch!!  Remember, there is still some doubt whether the Exocet that took out Sheffield actually detonated correctly, and the loss might have been due to impact damage and fire caused by the rocket motor.


The reason the Russians have always gone for very big, very fast missiles (who remembers AS-4?) is that they are extremely difficult to defeat.  You have to engage them at long range to have any hope of protection and you own missiles have to be extremely agile to manoeuvre against a target with a closing speed of Mach 10 or more.  Hence T45 and Aster.  Let's hope we never have to find out whose technology is better.

Greg



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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2019, 03:23:43 pm »

I wonder how much of this hypersonic stuff is posturing from military top brass who like new, whizzy weapons. All this high-tech might be fun and keep people in jobs, but much lower tech methods involving highly motivated people in rubber boats also seem to defeat warships.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2019, 04:40:25 pm »

Going back to the original subject I would imagine that a QE class carrier might have packaging issues. The almost rectangular wide flight deck would need a flat shallow box unless the deck comes in two pieces split lengthwise. Difficult to display in shops.

https://medium.com/voices-of-the-armed-forces/in-pictures-uk-f35b-makes-british-history-on-hms-queen-elizabeth-4b2cd441e7de

Colin
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2019, 10:31:51 am »

Dominic Cummings is being asked to conduct a review of MoD spending. Somehow I don't think he will turn out to be a fan of aircraft carriers.

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2019, 11:01:50 am »

Just to, tongue in cheek, combine the question of the viability of the model with the viability of the real McCoy, isn't the number of Hood models a bit of deja vu? %)
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SailorGreg

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2019, 02:09:26 pm »

Dominic Cummings is being asked to conduct a review of MoD spending. Somehow I don't think he will turn out to be a fan of aircraft carriers.

Colin

From the Mail Online -
"PM's maverick aide Dominic Cummings 'will overhaul wasteful Ministry of Defence spending' after branding 6.2billion aircraft carrier project 'a farce'"

Hmmm......  but then "review" has always been a euphemism for "cuts".  I wonder if any in Cabinet will dare oppose him?  (Sorry if this getting too political.. I'll    :police: :police:   myself!)

Greg

Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2019, 02:52:18 pm »

It won't be hard to demonstrate that the ships were overpriced as much of that was down to slowing construction to drag out employment for the workforce over several years. And then there was the dithering about whether to go for cats & traps or short take off and landing which also cost money. So they certainly cost a lot more than they need have done but that is now water under the bridge (or cash down the drain). However we have them now so it is the cost of running them against their perceived usefulness that is the issue and there a lot of valid points to be made both for and against them.

Dominic Cummins may have a great brain but as far as I know he isn't a military or geopolitical expert and in that sense in not qualified to express a valid opinion. The MoD procurement processes could obviously do with a lot of improvement but the inefficiency is probably as much down to poor short term political decision making often driven by the need to make immediate cost savings and an inability to come up with a proper strategic view of the UK's place in the world as anything else. The other big problem with the armed forces appears to be their habit of tinkering and adding to the specification while the project is under way which also drives up costs and wastes money.

I don't think this discussion is overly political as the problems have continued whichever party has been in power. It's about what our armed forces are for, both now and in the future, and how big they need to be as a consequence. Does the army need tanks anymore even while there is a continuing threat from Russia to invade Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania etc.? Should the RN be reduced to a coast defence force when Iran seems to be happy to pick off our tankers in the Gulf at will. Should the RAF move towards unmanned aircraft when Russia is frequently testing our airspace and ability to intercept them?

I thnk the majority of the population, including many politicians on all sides are simply unaware of the potential threats as they don't impact on their day to day lives with all their other priorities. In days gone by, I think there was more awareness of the role and value of the military than there is today. Millennials have little or no interest at all it would seem.

Decisions!

Colin
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Baldrick

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2019, 04:19:57 pm »

'A teenager will be able to deploy a drone from their smartphone to sink one of these multi-billion dollar platforms,' he wrote in March. (Dominic Cummings)

  Would you employ this bloke to run a whelk stall  (Baldrick)
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2019, 07:58:05 pm »

'A teenager will be able to deploy a drone from their smartphone to sink one of these multi-billion dollar platforms,' he wrote in March. (Dominic Cummings)

  Would you employ this bloke to run a whelk stall  (Baldrick)


Does sound like the ramblings of what we like to call a bit of a 'Dinlo' down here on the south coast!!
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2019, 09:04:01 pm »

It's not going to be a very objective review if he has already made his mind up.  :((

Colin

Edit: And here is the stray F35 taking off from QE at Portsmouth today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-50814318/f35-takes-off-from-hms-queen-elizabeth-for-first-time-in-uk
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kinmel

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2019, 09:10:13 pm »

I have never met a politician who changed his mind once faced with the facts.
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KitS

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2019, 10:30:08 pm »




I have never met a politician who changed his mind once faced with the facts.





Does the aforementioned Mr. Cummings count as a politician? AFAIK no-one voted him in to any Government position, he just seemed to assume the position which he inhabits.


We, the people, should be able to eject the charlatan!
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TomHugill

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2019, 11:10:22 pm »

It won't be hard to demonstrate that the ships were overpriced as much of that was down to slowing construction to drag out employment for the workforce over several years. And then there was the dithering about whether to go for cats & traps or short take off and landing which also cost money. So they certainly cost a lot more than they need have done but that is now water under the bridge (or cash down the drain). However we have them now so it is the cost of running them against their perceived usefulness that is the issue and there a lot of valid points to be made both for and against them.

Dominic Cummins may have a great brain but as far as I know he isn't a military or geopolitical expert and in that sense in not qualified to express a valid opinion. The MoD procurement processes could obviously do with a lot of improvement but the inefficiency is probably as much down to poor short term political decision making often driven by the need to make immediate cost savings and an inability to come up with a proper strategic view of the UK's place in the world as anything else. The other big problem with the armed forces appears to be their habit of tinkering and adding to the specification while the project is under way which also drives up costs and wastes money.

I don't think this discussion is overly political as the problems have continued whichever party has been in power. It's about what our armed forces are for, both now and in the future, and how big they need to be as a consequence. Does the army need tanks anymore even while there is a continuing threat from Russia to invade Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania etc.? Should the RN be reduced to a coast defence force when Iran seems to be happy to pick off our tankers in the Gulf at will. Should the RAF move towards unmanned aircraft when Russia is frequently testing our airspace and ability to intercept them?

I thnk the majority of the population, including many politicians on all sides are simply unaware of the potential threats as they don't impact on their day to day lives with all their other priorities. In days gone by, I think there was more awareness of the role and value of the military than there is today. Millennials have little or no interest at all it would seem.

Decisions!

Colin


Comment moderated  :police:
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kinmel

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2019, 06:56:18 am »


Does the aforementioned Mr. Cummings count as a politician? AFAIK no-one voted him in to any Government position, he just seemed to assume the position which he inhabits.


We, the people, should be able to eject the charlatan!

He is one of the unelected special people first invented by Blair, a SpAd. Many slither up the greasy pole and become M.P.s , but I think this one is above all that.
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tonyH

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2019, 10:00:26 am »

Could I ask which of you who take issue with politicians/special advisors/anybody else who sticks their head over the parapet, would be happy to throw the dice as to the risk in 5 years time? Worse odds than Paddy Powers and a really nasty payout if you get it wrong.
Dominic Cummins may not be elected but at least he's got a better idea of strategy and risk than the vast majority of our unelected lords and elected masters.Surely he's little different to the anonymous civil service and academic experts who like a 'flutter' with our money and advise the spending of 'loads a money' on poorly specified systems with no risk to themselves. Apart, of course, from having to come up with 'lessons have to be learnt' after the public enquiry which employs more of their kindred.Self perpetuating or what!
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2019, 10:20:11 am »

Todays Times suggests that Cummins' role will be more associated with reviewing procurement practices and the inefficiences within the MoD which certainly need looking at. I suspect they come down to a mixture of short term political direction, constantly tweaking specifications and general bureaucratic incompetence in various areas.

In that respect he could do some good as he is not beholden to any one faction. I don't much like the guy but by all means use his undoubted talents where appropriate although I suspect few of those involved will be very happy with the results when he points the finger. Nobody is likely to come out of it well assuming that the results are actually published.

I don't think I'd want him pontificating on the technicalities of flight envelopes of hypersonic missiles and how to defend against them though!

Colin
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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2019, 10:44:44 am »


I ' m not to well up on the pontifications  of  non - elected  officials  we've had plenty over the post 30 years. However  the MOD  and governments {:-{   have not exactly given or cared much about value for money when it comes to procurement.
Bowwave
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Bob K

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2019, 01:46:53 pm »

This topic has digressed annoyingly off topic for some time.

There was a BBC Feature yesterday about the first F35 take off from HMS Queen Elizabeth, whilst in Portsmouth Harbour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-50814318/f35-takes-off-from-hms-queen-elizabeth-for-first-time-in-uk

I respectfully suggest this is more relevant to the topic heading
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2019, 01:48:56 pm »

I posted that link yesterday Bob!  :-))

Colin
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Baldrick

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2019, 02:02:31 pm »




  It was also well covered in the newspapers and on the box. What is more troubling is some of the creepy stuff that happens below eye level and from experience we know this will impact on the QE class carriers if the support and air defence escorts are not forthcoming due to cut backs
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kinmel

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2019, 02:12:36 pm »

This topic has digressed annoyingly off topic for some time.

There was a BBC Feature yesterday about the first F35 take off from HMS Queen Elizabeth, whilst in Portsmouth Harbour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-50814318/f35-takes-off-from-hms-queen-elizabeth-for-first-time-in-uk

I respectfully suggest this is more relevant to the topic heading


That video is carefully written spin.   There was nothing significant about that take off, the first take off was 15 months ago and there have been many, many more since then.


 
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Baldrick

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2019, 02:18:56 pm »

That video is carefully written spin.   There was nothing significant about that take off, the first take off was 15 months ago and there have been many, many more since then.
  Just happened to be the first one in Portsmouth Harbour
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Colin Bishop

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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2019, 02:58:07 pm »

Yes, apparently the plane had some sort of fault so couldn't be flown off with the others so it was brought back to port with the ship whilst under repair. They couldn't have flown it off from a conventional carrier!

Colin
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Re: THE NEW RN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2019, 03:53:21 pm »






   I hope they warned the neighbours, probably dusted down the dockyard
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