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Author Topic: Effect of Cannon Fire  (Read 2161 times)

Allnightin

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2020, 01:40:08 PM »

Strongpoint at St Malo, France.

That would be an anti tank gun making those holes rather than a naval gun
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2020, 02:31:46 PM »

Possibly. There is another strongpoint nearby. In one of them the shell is still embedded in the structure so presumably a solid round. From memory I think it was around 75mm.

Colin
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warspite

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2020, 10:35:05 AM »

I stand corrected - though I did watch the Jutland doc's and knew about the cordite problem and magazine doors being open or removed, I used the 'Plunging' term meaning to indicate that a ¼ to ½ ton shell hitting a ship did penetrate the side or deck Armour  {:-{
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2020, 10:52:10 AM »

There are a huge number of variables affecting what happens when a shells hits a ship including the type of shell, angle of impact, inclination, thickness and quality of the armour and nature of the supporting structure (e.g. armour nor penetrated but driven in.)

Campbell's book attempts to analyse all the major hits on both British and Gernam ships at Jutland and makes fascinating if slightly morbid reading.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/jutland/john-campbell/9780851777504

If you set aside the cordite induced explosions, the relatively lightly armoured British Battlecruisers stood up very well to the German shelling.

Colin
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Geoff

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2020, 01:32:45 PM »

I would agree with Colin about the Battlecrusiers standing up ok - I think Tiger was hit 222 times or something like that and was still steaming and fighting at the end of the day.


One thing often not considered is that whilst the German ships had heavier armor they were being attacked by heavier shells. Conversely the more lightly armored British ships were being attacked by lighter shells.


Without getting into shell quality question armor penetration is a function of kinetic energy, basically speed x weight of shell at the point of impact vs the ability of armor to resist penetration. You then throw into the equation the angle the shell hits and even light armor can resist large shells if the angle is oblique enough.


Lighter shells fires at higher velocity loose out at longer ranges to heavier shells fired at lower velocity as the heavier shell retains more energy at the point of impact. Its almost impossible for ship designers to work out other than to use an empirical methodology of distance at right angles because ships are themselves moving and turning and rolling and yawing all of which affects the angle of impact.


There is an excellent book on the subject from Amazon "Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland" (£34 new) which goes into it all in exhaustive detail with some new conclusions which overturn certain myths.


Enjoy


Geoff







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Geoff

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2020, 01:33:16 PM »

Tiger should be 22 times and not 222! fat finger syndrome!


Geoff
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tonyH

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2020, 07:44:38 PM »

There's a decent, fairly contemporary, summary and other stuff of Jutland from The Engineer of 20/2/1920 with pics of the damage to the Seydlitz. I've got a pdf from Graces Guide but I don't know how or if I can post it on here. Perhaps, if anyone know a way they'd let me know?
Tony
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dodes

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2020, 03:09:37 PM »

One major point not made about the two fleets is that the German fleet was designed to fight in the North sea and round into the Baltic, so there crews lived ashore in Barracks consequently there hulls were a honeycomb of small compartments making hard to do substantial damage per shell, compared to British ships that are designed to go world wide and had to permanently accommodate a full crew 24/7 meaning large habitual messes, meaning a shell will have more effect on the vessels construction.
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raflaunches

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2020, 03:57:46 PM »

Adding to Dodes’ comments:
Regarding the German warships this was also perhaps the reason why they took so long to repair, consider a pipe line which passes through a section of the ship but is routed through 10 bulkheads- imagine how bad it would be to replace it!
I also think that the German dockyards were not as numerous as the Royal Navy’s so there was limited space to repair them. Adding up these problems could possibly lead to massive delays in getting a battle fleet ready- if you compare to the Grand Fleet which was up and running to full numbers,if not greater numbers, in less than a month.
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2020, 04:57:21 PM »

Re Nick's comments about pipes: Watertight bulkheads are only watertight if there are no holes in them but the German ships had all sorts of connections passing between compartments and many of the connections failed when the ships were hit which made it very difficult to control flooding.

British contstructors became more aware of the dangers and of the need to shut off connections either side of a bulkhead. In fact the Lord Nelson and early Dreadnought classes featured virtually unpierced main bulkheads which meant that to get between compartments on either side it was necessary to climb up and over the top of the bulkhead. Some ships had lifts for the engineers! Eventually this was found to be too inconvenient in terms of moving around the ship and the policy was changed.

Colin
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dodes

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Re: Effect of Cannon Fire
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2020, 11:40:16 AM »

Am pretty sure by WW1 ships had all kind of services piercing the watertight bulkheads, such as electric cables, etc, as they do today. Just that they had valves either side and cables went through watertight junction box's etc. But there is a report of a German light cruiser which was abandoned and left on fire, during the night she was seen glowing red while adrift. Plus a German capital ship was torpedoed at night and completely erupted and took virtually her entire crew. But as my father said and he served in the last war, " Son, you would sailing along with all your mates in a nice clean mess and the action stations alarm goes off. My station was damage control(he was a C.P.O. ERA1) , you take a hit, you open the door and what was a nice clean mess, is now black and hanging from the twisted metal overhead is filth which is all that is left of your mates. I had asked him what is it like to be at war, needless to say, he never usually say much except for humorous events. He had three ships in that war, Norfolk from 1939, Woodcock from new1943, then Redpole about 1945/6 far east. So we who live now, only have books to read about it but those who really know did not speak of it and are now all gone. So I say God Bless Them All. {:-{
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