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Author Topic: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser  (Read 3809 times)

zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2020, 02:07:25 pm »

Hi Zooma
I have that motor in my Huntsman on 3S with 40mm 2 blade prop, it goes very nicely.
My mate has the same in his Spearfish on 4S and the thing is a rocket!!!
Canabus


The motor is an unknown to me - I was just guessing that it should be "about right" - so your comments are most welcome as the Rapier is not so different in overall dimensions to your Huntsman or your mates Spearfish.......... so it should be OK. :-))


Stay safe!


Bob.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2020, 04:34:30 pm »

 
 30 or 40 years (?) after it was first designed .... that Still a Great shape for a model boat!   :-))


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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2020, 05:53:30 pm »


 30 or 40 years(?) after it was first designed .... that Still a Great shape for a model boat!   :-))




 

I saw my first Rapier in the 1960's when I was a member of the Bath Model Power Boat Club, so the design could be well over 50 years old now, and when I first saw it I did not like the look of it much as it was so different to the models that we were used to seeing at the time.


The Fairey Marine Swordsman model at just over 33" long was the favourite model boat in our club at the time (some built from Aerokits and some from plan), along with a fair mix of just about every other model power boat that could be built from a kit or a plan,  but that pointed looking Rapier was definitely "different" to all the others, so its looks could be described as "ground breaking" at that time. 


It was a bit of a "Marmite" type of boat when it first came out with the majority of us thinking that it looked a little "odd".


Fast forward half a century and I have got used to it now and I actually rather like it the more I see it.[/font]


Sadly this model has not been the subject of a LesRo re-kit and although you can send away for a plan (as I did) it is a typical "kit plan" that is somewhat devoid of much useful information - but not impossible to make a new model from after developing your own bulkhead templates etc.


I added a hatch to the rear cab roof and a small "streamlined" type of short mast to the main cab roof along with some roof rails as the model still looked a little too plain to me and I wanted to make it look just a bit more "interesting".


There is a strong possibility that after its "sea trials" have been completed that I will perhaps add some sort of low hatch or air-con unit to the forward cab roof too and change the handrails from the simple "streamlined" type to the more traditional handrails........but the more I look at it the more I like its design simplicity - so it may just gain some suitable deck fittings, navigation lights and air horn if I can find something the right sort of shape to suite the boat.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2020, 10:49:42 pm »


After a lot of consideration, we ventured out for the for the first time (after 4 months of shielding) and took the Rapier to the Southport Model Boat Club lake on Sunday to give it a trial run as I wanted to see if everything was working OK as the concerns that I had regarding the short prop shaft and forward mounted rudder were still worrying me.

The boat has yet to receive its final coat of paint and the windows are not yet glazed, but it was thought to be OK for testing and if I needed to fit a new longer shaft and move the rudder and water pick-up rearwards I would also need to make the shaft angle a little shallower too, so I wanted to see if this work needed doing before the final detailing and finishing coats of paint were applied.

My hope was that it should be OK as boats from a similar era that were designed for the old "steering competitions" (such as Vic Smeeds Remora) also had short shafts with a rudder further forward than "normal", and I have seen a lot of very fast over-powered Remoras over the years that did not seem to be handicapped in any way by this configuration!

As it happened the boat was very fast and it absolutely "railed" its way around the lake with a very good steering response and it also looked really good on the water, but after a while I noticed that it was not quite as stable as it was and it began to "chop" a little, so I brought it in to take a look only to find the front engine compartment was quite deep in water!

I emptied the water out and dried everything but I could see no obvious source of the leak, so I guessed that water had been splashing-in through the window openings, so they were taped-up and the model was launched again.  Following a very 'spirited" run, I noticed that the "chopping" beginning to start coming back again so the boat was brought in to find the front engine compartment full of water again!

The chopping motion became worse as the depth (and weight) of water increased and slopped backwards and forwards in the engine bay causing the centre of gravity to move backwards and forwards too!

The water was emptied out again and as the tape covering the window openings had stayed firmly in place further investigation was needed after everything was dried out again - but nothing obvious could be seen, so I decided to run the motor at high speed as I held onto the hull from the lakeside without the cab tops fitted so I could look inside, and this is when the source of the leak became very obvious.


The new water-cooled mount (bought on eBay from a local specialist in performance model boat parts) was seen to be pumping water into the engine compartment at an alarmingly fast rate!!!!  Basically the new water cooled mount was faulty and leaking like a sieve - and this was why no "obvious" causes of the water ingress could be found.

When removed from the boat the new machined alloy mount looks OK and has no obvious splits or gaps, but when under pressure the water just pours out of it.  The glass fibre side panels of the mount are firmly fixed into the hull firstly with Araldite,  and then glass fibred-in,  so I really did not want to try to cut them out just to return the faulty item as I am sure it could cause a lot of damage (and extra work).

I decided to buy a replacement of the same type - but check it before fitting to make sure that it has no leaks!


The cost of a replacement was only 8.99 (plus postage) so I ordered one from the lakeside (using my iPhone) and it arrived in Tuesdays post, so I should be able to cure the only problem the boat had quite easily and for not much more than a tenner and a few minutes work.  Good job!

Now I will take my time rubbing down and applying layers of new paint until I get a finish I am happy with, glaze the windows, and make some parts to "personalise" the boat with non-authentic kit parts (!) and I will also test the new motor mount to make sure it does not leak before my Rapier gets it first "proper" maiden voyage!


This restoration has turned out to be a lot better than I had feared it would be.  The boat is fast and stable, its looks attracted some nice compliments from the shore (they could not see the quality of paint from that far away!) and apart from the failure of the machined alloy water cooled engine mount the boat performed faultlessly.
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canabus

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2020, 06:55:19 am »

Hi Zooma

The motor does not require watercooling if you do not over prop it !!!

I have never used watercooling on any of my boats.

Canabus
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2020, 09:32:06 am »

Hi Zooma

The motor does not require watercooling if you do not over prop it !!!

I have never used watercooling on any of my boats.

Canabus
 


Hi Canabus,


All of my brushless powered model boats run quite fast and every one of them has a water-cooled speed controller that in turn feeds a water cooled motor mount.


This seems to be "standard practice" and works well enough, although the faster boats still come back after a run with a "fairly warm" motor and speed controller.


Maybe a nice sedate scale model would not need water cooling on the speed controller or the motor (my TID tug has a brushed motor and no water cooling) but I honesty think that without water cooing none of my fast brushless boats would survive the excess heat, and although I test them with different size props to see what works best, they usually all come back fairly warm after a fast run.


I would not use an over-sized prop on any brushless motor as they achieve their best performance when being able to rev freely.


I have been thinking about making a large alloy mount to act as a heat sink on a larger 600 sized brushless (helicopter type) motor as it is not proving too easy to find a water cooled mount to fit it.  I am considering machining the mount from heavy alloy and adding plenty of cooling fins to help dissipate the heat and testing this in old Sea Queen as it has a reasonably large amount of air space in the cabin.


The speed controller would still need water cooling, but it would be interesting to find out how cool the motor can run without water cooling in a model that should still give a nice brisk turn of speed.


Stay safe,


Bob.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2020, 05:26:30 pm »

I tested the RAPIER again on Sunday with the new (non leaking) replacement water-cooled motor mount and a pair of adjustable trim tabs fitted.


The boat was run with an X45 prop and a 2 cell Lipo battery (as previously) but this time it run much more smoothly with no porpoising (unless running across a wake or wave).  This may confirm my suspicion that the large volume of water that had been pumped into the engine bay during its maiden voyage was moving about, and the moving weight of this water was causing the porpoising?


No adjustments were made to the newly fitted trim tabs so they stayed straight and in line with underside of the hull, so maybe they were not needed and had no influence on the improved running, but they are fitted now so I may experiment with them in the future (perhaps when I run the motor on 3 cells?),  but it is certainly fast enough on two cells so I have no immeadiate plans to do this until I get the chance to run it on a larger expanse of open water.


If I run it on 3 cells I will drop the prop size down to an X40 or 40 to allow the motor to rev more freely.  I may actually try dropping the prop size to an X40 on the boat this weekend to see if it makes much difference (still on 2 cells), but it is good on the X45 and the motor after a full run is barely warm and the 180amp speed controller is stone cold.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2020, 06:02:24 pm »

I've a couple of films from Bob - Before and after the mods but they're on MOV /mp4 files and I've no idea if they're loadable on to Mayhem.Any advice?
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2020, 07:21:36 pm »

Very interesting ,
I have this boat in both sizes and always enjoyed it
Great work and good restoration
Given me some food for thought
Thanks and enjoy
Mark
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2020, 09:15:38 am »

I think the smaller version of the Rapier was called the Stiletto?


There was one of these on eBay last week (and at a good pensioners price too) that I would have liked to have bought, but it was in Nottingham and for collection only and I am not able to drive down to pick it up. Shame really as I think it would have been OK to post it in a suitable sized box as they tough enough to withstand delivery with no delicate scale parts to knock off - and the model was for restoration in any case and unlikely to have been spoilt in transit.


I am hoping to find another Rapier some time as I have enjoyed bringing this one back to life and I would like to do another one as there are a few things that I would like to try regrading shaft length and angle and size of brushless motor etc, but failing that I have a set of plans for an Aerokits Swordsman - my first ever model boat that I built in the '60's and that could be my next "new" project as the lengthy Chris Craft Corvette project rumbles along in the background!







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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2020, 04:09:50 pm »

My Rapier is no longer in the black and white undercoat that I have been running it in during testing.


Now I know that I wont be having to make any big changes to the hull I have added some gloss paint and have chosen to try the same colours that I used when I raced my Aerokits Swordsman back in the 1960's.


I am not sure if this colour suites the Rapier as well as it did the Swordsman, but at least it will look better than the undercoat finish that I have been running it with during my testing on the club lake........and I need to get a few coats of gloss paint on it and rubbed down to get a good paint finish - so it may change colour again  before I have finished adding the final details etc.


Stay safe.


Bob.



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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2020, 07:45:07 pm »

And now in colour!
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2020, 10:10:02 pm »

Sorry, I posted this using my iPhone when I was at the club lake - obviously not the best idea - as I found a way of adding it to the thread about the Javelin by mistake! 

Next time I will wait until I get home and use my computer that has a bigger keyboard and much larger screen (a lot more suited to my limited IT skills and eyesight!).

I ran the Rapier with an S50 prop this time instead of the 45X that I have been using and I think the speed may have been fractionally slower (not enough to make any real difference), but the run times were slightly better.

Next time I will try a 40X and see what that does when still running on two cells.  The smaller prop will also suite 3 cell running better too, but I already have enough speed for our club lake using two cells so that experiment will have wait!


I also want to try an X50 prop on two cells as well so that I have tried going up and down in diameter and pitch.  The speed controller comes back stone cold after every 'spirited" run, and the motor is just a little warm, so maybe the motor will turn the bigger prop without struggling and if it does it could be very interesting.


One thing I have noticed is that the Rapier is a bit noisy,  but about half way down the lake it almost goes totally silent and then runs as smooth as silk when running flat-out.  Maybe that just happens to be the boats "sweet spot", but I have noticed this when using both the X45 and the S50 props so if this strange "trait" can be "dialed-out" with a change of prop I would be very pleased.

My experiments with different props may change this, but at the moment it is a mystery to me - not a real problem - but a bit strange.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2020, 01:25:55 pm »

Hi Zooma, it could be an alignment issue or the coupling itself?

Good to see that you are thinking of building a Swordsman again. Then of course there are the Huntress and Huntsman 28 and 31 from the 60s!

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2020, 03:43:33 pm »

Hi Bob,
What's the shaft lubricated with?
Tony
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2020, 09:53:20 am »

Hi Zooma, it could be an alignment issue or the coupling itself?

Good to see that you are thinking of building a Swordsman again. Then of course there are the Huntress and Huntsman 28 and 31 from the 60s!

Chris


Hi Chris,


I am using a Powerflex coupling from Modelboatbits and aligned the shaft and mount (with motor fitted) by using the solid Powerflex Alignment shaft and "glued" the motor plate assembly into the hull firstly with good old fashioned 24 hour Araldite, and checked it again the next day before using chopped glass fibre matting to complete the bonding into the hull.


When everything was fully set I removed the alignment shaft and fitted the Powerflex coupling so in theory at least I should have a "true" alignment between the motor shaft and the prop-shaft.


A mistake I may have made is to bond the adjustable water-cooled motor mount assembly onto a 4mm plywood plate approx 90mm x 70mm and this was bonded onto a pair of 20mm thick shaped "bulkheads" at front and back. This looks and feels like a rock solid "bullet-proof" mount, but maybe the 4mm plate (although supported rigidly at front and back by the heavyweight mounting bulkheads) is resonating and making it should a bit louder than it should?


I am thinking about putting some two part expanding foam under this mounting plate into the small space that is left between the front and rear mini bulkhead engine plate supports and the hull bottom to deaden the sound rather than cut everything out and start again with a thicker motor mounting plate.


Yes I like the Fairly Marine hulls and naturally still have an affection for my first ever Aerokits Sworsdman as it was the first model boat I ever made from a kit and it served me well.  At 33" long (if I remember correctly) it is a nice size - not too big and not too small.  I don't know what sort of scale this model would have been, but I see that the new Huntress kit by Dave Milbourn is 34" long and described and being 1/8 scale - so maybe the Swordsman was about 1/8 scale too?


As far as I know very few Swordsmen were ever made (was it 61 built in total between 1964 - 1974 ?) so they are quite a vintage boat now with only a few examples known to have survived and still be in regular use. 


Making the front pulpit would be a problem for me, but without it the Swordsman would be "incomplete" so I will have to think about the best way to make one.  I prefer to have a good solid one made from brass bar and brazed together, but I no longer have the facilities to do this.  Back in the '60's the Aerokits Swordsman was so popular that it was possible to buy a ready-made pulpit so anyone without brazing facilities was still able to fit a good solid one to their model.


I always have far too many "vintage" projects "on the go" at any one time, but thanks to the lockdown I have been able to make a fair sized "dent" in the numbers - only to spoil this by starting another new build (Wavemaster and Swordsman) or another restoration (Javelin).


Stay safe.


Bob.













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zooma

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2020, 10:05:27 am »

Hi Bob,
What's the shaft lubricated with?
Tony


Hi Tony,


I am using a black lithium type of grease - the same sort that I use on my flexi-shaft drives on my fast electric boats.


My flexi-shaft drives are always stripped, cleaned, and re-lubricated after every session, but the conventional rigid prop-shafts should normally only need stripping and re-lubing once or twice a year depending on how often and has fast they are run.


I know there are a lot of different preferences regarding lubricating pro-shafts.  Some prefer to use oil, and others have some fairly elaborate self mixed concoctions of oil and greases, but the lubrication requirement will vary quite a bit with the intended use.


My TID tug plods along nicely with a touch of light lubricating oil dripped into the oiling tube every now and again, but my Rapier runs much faster so I am using this comparatively high tech grease and think I will probably have to strip and re-lube the 5mm shaft on a fairly regular basis to keep it running well.


Thanks for your on-going help Tony  - and stay safe!


Bob.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2020, 06:26:53 pm »

Hi Bob

You've certainly got the alignment covered so as you say it could be resonance. I'd be wary of using expanding foam though as there has been reports of it continuing to expand when restrained and damaging the hull.

The Aerokits Swordsman was at a scale of 1:12 which as you say is a nice size and is the scale that I'm building all my Fairey models to. I did modify the drawings to produce the raised roof aft cabin version which I'm currently building and SLEC/DM now do a kit of it at 1:16 scale. The full sized Swordsman at 33 feet is a much bigger boat than the Huntress at 23 feet.

I'm currently sticking to just Fairey models and that's still giving me plenty to go at!

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2020, 07:23:26 pm »

Hi Bob

You've certainly got the alignment covered so as you say it could be resonance. I'd be wary of using expanding foam though as there has been reports of it continuing to expand when restrained and damaging the hull.

The Aerokits Swordsman was at a scale of 1/12 which as you say is a nice size and is the scale that I'm building all my Fairey models to. I did modify the drawings to produce the raised roof aft cabin version which I'm currently building and SLEC/DM now do a kit of it at 1:16 scale. The full sized Swordsman at 33 feet is a much bigger boat than the Huntress at 23 feet.

I'm currently sticking to just Fairey models and that's still giving me plenty to go at!


Chris


Hi Chris,


Its a shame that the available Fairey Marine kits are all to different scales as I do like to have similar models made to the same scale as they look good together and give some sort of reference to each other.

Many WW2 Coastal Forces MTB and MGB etc are modelled to 1/24 scale to give this "like" comparison between the different types, and this is very helpful and they do look good when they are sailed together.

Did you have to draw-up all of your 1/12 scale drawings yourself, or is there anything readily available to give me a "same scale" companion for my Swordsman?

Bob.


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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2020, 09:19:23 pm »

Hi Bob

SARIK do the plans and kit for the Huntress at 1:12 which is a nice little boat and the first of the Fairey sports cruisers.

I got the plans for the Swordsman off EBay. They were partly the Aerokits kit drawings and partly very badly drawn templates for the frames and other parts so redrew them accurately using the top and side views from the kit drawings. Have only drawn the hull so far and built it and have the superstructure to do including modifying the aft cabin to the version I want.

Even if I have the drawings at 1:12 like for the Huntsman 28 I redraw them so that I can modify them and print them out.

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2020, 11:10:18 am »

My plans for the Aerokits Swordsman were also bought from eBay and came with a set of bulkhead drawings - so they are probably the same ones as yours!


I am preparing to start work on the Swordsman by making a keel template from the drawings (which I guess are just a straight copy of the original kit plans?) so I guess the keel shape will be accurate enough,.


Thanks for the tip about the accuracy of the bulkhead templates, I will have to be careful and check the shapes before cutting any wood for them.


A 1/12 scale Huntsman sounds good too.


Meanwhile, I have a little more tidying-up to do on the Rapier, and when I am happy with the paintwork I will glaze the windows and then just enjoy running it.


I have to say that it will look good alongside a 1/12 scale Swordsman - it will also bring back a lot of good memories of when I used to see them both on the water together on the River Avon at Saltford where a group of us from Bath used to meet up every weekend in the late 60's.......... :-))
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2020, 05:33:16 pm »

Hi Bob

I'll post you my frame and keel drawings so that you can do a comparison with the Ebay ones. I've modified them for the way I build with a temporary spine etc. but the overall shape is right. You don't have to look carefully at the Ebay ones, if they are the same as the ones I've got they are rubbish!

Here is my hull  but note that the rear decking is different to your version as the roof will be above the deck and near the top of the coamings whereas with yours the roof of the cabin is level with the deck. They also did a full open cockpit version i.e. no aft cabin. Unfortunately work has stalled on mine as I've got to plank the deck and so started on others, all Faireys!

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2020, 09:13:29 pm »

That looks really good Chris - we should start another thread about the Swordsman as we are starting to "high-jack" this Rapier thread with our interest in the Fairey deep vee monohedron hulls - but they both have a similar appeal so I hope we will be forgiven!


Thanks for the plans and the templates - I will get started with them .......very soon  :-))




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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2020, 10:19:38 pm »

At least it's your thread Bob, but you're right.

Perhaps you could start a build blog on the Swordsman once you get going.

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2020, 10:59:44 am »

At least it's your thread Bob, but you're right.

Perhaps you could start a build blog on the Swordsman once you get going.

Chris


Hi Chris,


I think you may be better qualified than me to start a build thread on a Swordsman as you have a lot of specialised knowledge, but I am happy to start a thread when I begin work on my Aerokits based Swordsman if you think it would be of any interest to anyone - and if Tony is still happy to post my pictures for me (he may well be getting a bit fed-up with my classic model boat building and restoration obsession by now!). 


My IT skills are almost non-existant and I have to admit that I prefer to spend any spare pension money I have on model boat building materials rather than buying a new computer and learning how to use it properly - even though it is now painfully slow - and getting good grade coal to run it on is getting harder to find all the time!


Hopefully you will jump-in with your greater Fairy Marine knowledge to help fill in the gaps in my limited knowledge on this superb classic model?


Moving back to the Rapier again (!) reminds me of something I forgot to mention that happened the last time I was able to sail it on our club lake.


As I put he boat in the water and started to pull away I noticed a fast twin hull racing cat moving in behind the Rapier. This boat had been making some nice white water and looked fast to me.  As I opened the throttle and picked up some speed I noticed that this cat was forming alongside me and giving chase!!


To my surprise he could not catch the Rapier - even though the cat looked a lot "busier" on the water (lots of impressive surface prop spray etc).


Several laps of the lake later the cat was cutting off my turns to try to make up the lost ground, but was falling behind again every time we moved in a straight line.


When I finished my run and brought the boat back to shore, the cat owner was very interested to see what motor I had inside so he was obviously partly impressed and slightly disappointed that he had been out-run by this comparative barge!


This reminded me of the apparent perception of speed that can easily fool us with size.  What I mean by this is that a bigger boat running at the same speed as a smaller or lower profile boat will always look a lot slower - but when run alongside each other it becomes apparent just how fast the larger boat is really moving.


My Rapier is over 39" long and has quite a tall superstructure. The fast cat was probably about 30" long but had a very low cockpit (not really much of a super-structure) and looked much faster on the water, but when run alongside each other, the slower looking Rapier was in fact quicker!


I am not sure why after so many years of being fully aware of this that it still catches me out now and again - but it does - and I still find it fascinating.
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