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Author Topic: boat/ships with three props  (Read 3416 times)

Howard

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boat/ships with three props
« on: April 01, 2020, 09:15:49 pm »

Hello Gents,
 Question one prop can be a left or right, twin prop counter rotating either, what happens with three props and why which way do you make the one in the middle turn and why, I can understand two or four props cancel each other out but not three. hope am not thick and asking a stupid question.
                       Regards Howard.   
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garethjones35

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2020, 07:18:35 am »

Hi Howard,


I believe on the Elco and Higgins PT boats all three propellers rotated in the same direction.  The photo below is alleged to be a Higgins boat.



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Stan

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2020, 08:40:59 am »

Hi Howard on my plastic Elco conversation two run one way and one runs in the opposite way. Once told prop rotations on models may not follow full size vessel .




Stan.
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garethjones35

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2020, 09:24:43 am »

Hi Howard,


On my 1:24 scale ELCO PT boat I originally built it with all three props rotating in the same direction.  Someone at Goole MBC, I cant remember who, said that was wrong and one of the outboard ones should be the opposite hand.  I swapped one for the opposite hand and reversed the direction on that motor but I could not tell any difference in the models handling, although I did not investigate it very scientifically.  On my model, only the outboard props are driven, the centre one just freewheels.


I have started on the brushless conversion of it now, I might investigate in more detail when I reach the point of testing the new drive system.


Gareth
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Allnightin

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2020, 10:28:42 am »

Perhaps the biggest 3 shaft warships were Bismarck and Scharnhorst and their sisters.  In each case the outer shafts turned in opposite directions with the centre and port shafts turning anti clockwise when viewed from astern and the starboard shaft turning clockwise.  Small high performance boats like the Vosper MTBs and Elco PTs usually all turned in the same direction as the earlier photo shows
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Howard

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2020, 10:33:02 am »

Hi Thank you Gareth and Stan,
 I just cant find and info into it just wondered how and which way the middle one turns like on the likes of the RMS Titanic.
             Regards Howard.
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T888

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2020, 11:35:11 am »

Howard,
I based my HMHS Britannic centre prop rotation type on the pictures from the dive survey.
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Regards David

T888

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2020, 11:41:53 am »

Howard,



There is also pictures of Olympic in Southampton floating dry dock , that shows she had a four blade prop and you can also see it rotation.
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Regards David

rickles23

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2020, 12:03:26 pm »

The German E/S boat had a specially shaped stern to counteract the propeller problem.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB6ADWMze4w  at the 3.20 mark


Regards
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jaymac

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2020, 12:45:51 pm »

The Lürssen effect was more  important
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garethjones35

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2020, 01:20:42 pm »

Go on admit it Howard, you're planning to buy the new Titanic kit.  How many yet to be started hulls have you got stashed away in the loft now?


Gareth
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Howard

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2020, 01:35:54 pm »

Gareth Ssshhhhhhooooo but yes I am going to get one but a few months away yet,  only have about ten now but the Titanic is special and a must have.  I mainly have my 1:24 North East tugs  SD14 take up a lot of time cutting out the card, I haven't bought a kit or hull for years now but love reading and researching and planning as much as I can before I start a build and two grand children are taking up some of my time now one's off school.
           Regards Howard.   
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Colin Bishop

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2020, 01:54:13 pm »

If you look at online photos of Titanic/Olympic in dry dock you can see in which direction the centre prop turned.

Colin
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Howard

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2020, 02:05:47 pm »

Hi Colin,
 Yes I have seen them I just cant get my head around how three work as it always seam that one turns one way and the other two the other way as is one anti clock  and the two clock wise or could it be anti clock then clock and then anti clock again just seams the middle prop turns the same as one of the others just thought that would push the ship more to port or starboard maybe my old brain but thanks for your reply.
           Regards Howard
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Colin Bishop

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2020, 03:09:32 pm »

Well, if you have three propellors there are only two directions each one can turn!

If you look at this image:

https://imgur.com/dhq5vFL

You can see that when going ahead, the port prop turns anti clockwise and the middle and starboard props turn clockwise.

Colin
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morley bill 1

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2020, 04:53:32 pm »

Hi the wedge on the E boat stern acted as a trim tab does to hold the bow down   Bill...
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RST

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2020, 09:44:52 pm »

***Unfriendly comments removed***
... "PT" boats in general at least all had the same engines, gearboxes and props and everything was the same -makes absolute sense like they did for for replacements!  No counter-rotating nonsense but I guess they didn't go in reverse much with all three props either!
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Howard

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2020, 11:10:52 pm »

Am sorry if my question is starting to up-set members now so would one of the mod please lock this thread now I think I have all the info now thank you to all the replied.
              Regards Howard.
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tigertiger

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2020, 12:34:15 pm »

Nobody should ever feel the need to apologize for asking a civil question on this forum.

I think a lot of us are getting a bit ratty due to being locked down, but we can still be friendly on the forum.

 :-))
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rickles23

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2020, 10:40:33 am »

I agree with tigertiger. Cool down and answer a query from a fellow modeler. Regards
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John W E

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2020, 05:13:48 pm »


Hi Howard


By, you like opening a can of worms really don't ya :-)  and before anyone says anything - the honest truth about propellers and design, there is no hard and fast rules.  Each vessel, or shall we say, each group of vessels is individual.   If you are talking about MTBs and fast run abouts there is a set of rules which govern their designs and the amount of propeller shafts and engine horse power plus hull shape, these are all have to be taken into consideration if we are going to discuss this type of vessel.   If we are talking cargo ships these have another set of rules as these come under what is known as displacement hulls.   Their propellers and engines are like I say governed by their type of rules.


By what you are talking about - the Titanic - you have to take into consideration the time she was built and the Company she was built for.  Also the reason she was built - the top of bottom of it is - not being too harsh - was greed.   How fast we can get from A to B as cheaply as possible.  The centre engine of the Titanic was steam turbine - two outboard engines were 4 cylinder reciprocating engines - the exhaust steam from these 2 wing engines fed the steam turbine.   Now, the turbine, I don't think had a reverse gearbox and I think she could only drive  forwards.  So, when she left port, she would leave on her 2 wing engines (presumably) so she could manoeuvre easily and once she left harbour she could engage her turbine engine to give her maximum speed.  That is all good.


We also have to take into consideration why they never put a 3rd reciprocating engine in the Titanic - possibly the reason being - and very strongly it may have been the space require for the engine + the extra fuel which needed to be carried + the extra boilers to maintain it.   Now, we will come to the direction of the propellers.   


If we stand and look at the back end (stern) of a triple propped ship - we will see the 2 wing propellers are actually in free floating water - in other words the water can pass along the sides of the ships on the bottom - directly onto the blades of the propellers, giving them maximum efficiency, whether they turn inboard or outboard.   Your centre propeller is actually starved of free flowing water, compared to the outboard ones.  The only way it gets its full efficiency is when the ship is moving, the thrust from the propeller starts to move around the radius of the propeller - in other words from say 7 o'clock to 12 o'clock the thrust will move say from say 7 o'clock to 2 o'clock - so therefore increasing the efficiency.   To check this out, stick one of your models in the bath with the motor running - and CAREFULLY - feel the thrust from the propeller and see how it varies.  To which way the centre propeller actually rotates doesn't actually matter - because - we are going from A to B as quickly as possible and we can correct our course with a slight alteration on our rudder.  This in real life would have been done on the sea trials on the measured mile. 



THIS IS A VERY SIMPLIED - VERY SIMPLIFIED explanation - some points may be way off the mark - to those who want to live the life of propeller design :-) but those like the rest of use who enjoy modelling - its just a quick explanation.


Howard - here is a picture of a bit of a complicated set up and all this was done to correct cavitation :-)
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tonyH

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2020, 05:40:24 pm »

It's always amazed me how beautiful Turbinia is and how the direct drive turbine had the power to drive all those props :-)
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Howard

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2020, 06:00:34 pm »

Hello John,
Thank you so much for your reply yes it was more about the Titanic having three props just couldn't get my head around how the props would turn understood how twins would turn cock and anti-clock wise either in would or out would but now you have explained the third was just for max or more speed would think you rudder may of been set few degrees to one way to keep her on course by the way am a ex merchant navy guy from Hebburn but have lived in Lincolnshire since 1978. I bet Ocean Rd has changed a lot I miss the coast greatly now being 40plus miles inland, Again John thank you for your expansion.
               Regards Howard.     
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deadbeat

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2020, 01:25:43 pm »

Does this help the discussion, an E Boat in dock.
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Howard

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Re: boat/ships with three props
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2020, 03:04:10 pm »

Hello deadbeat as we are not on about mt or eboats as they all turn the same way I should of made it plain I meant more about ships like the Titanic but thank you for your reply.

Regards Howard.
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