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Author Topic: A few steam questions  (Read 805 times)

belli

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A few steam questions
« on: May 12, 2020, 07:06:41 PM »

I did manage to find a Choupette kit about four months ago, the plans arrived today!  The engine drawn in the plans is quite detailed and I guess drawn from a real engine, 3/8" bore and 5/8" stroke, twin cylinder.  Boiler is 3" diameter and 4" long (high), does anybody have any details what the boiler engine combo on the plans was?  I think this would be a nice size engine to build.

First day back at work yesterday, I made enquiries with one of our suppliers for Cu tubing.  I am able to source 2" x 0.047" wall (52mmx1.2mm in old money) tubing and 3" x 0.067" (76x1.7mm) wall for the bigger.  Do you think I can use these for boilers?  I've poked around for boiler designs but none have really grabbed me, anybody have something nice like the one on the Choupette?  It looks like a horizontal boiler that was turned vertical.
Crap, gotta answer all these question before I can post....
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rhavrane

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 08:55:45 PM »

Bonjour belli,
Is that this Choupette you refer to ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGl2mnb5dC8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yertSsjcFQM  ?

A boiler of 52 mm is nothing, the one I have is even not enough powerfulfor 2 x 0,5 cm3 machines : 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6k7qQFPZUU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFuptbMf4aw She has 5 minutes of autonomy.

A wall of 1,7 mm is sufficient, my 100 mm JMC boilers have walls of 1,5 mm and are tested at 10 Bar (150 PSI), example: https://youtu.be/NOcpmwRUadU

76 mm, especally if it is an outside diameter does not leave a lot of room to the water, to be used with a small machine (2 cm3 max).
This 80 x 120 mm gives about 15 minutes of autonomy without whistle : https://youtu.be/F4n25B1pJzY

And, depending of its conception, a vertical boiler can contain less that an horizontal of same height/length and has an impact on the gravity center of the boat
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2020, 09:35:03 PM »

Bonjour Raphaël (or is it Bonsoir?)

Merci pour votre conseil. J'ai commencé seulement il y a 6 semaines avec les bateaux à vapeur et j'e n'ai aucune expérience. J'ai 5 mètres de tuyau de 50mm qui actuellement ne me servent à rien.

J'ai contruit un moteur de votre ami Bourdillat, le guignol convient très bien à mon côté autistique.  Je ne suis pas sur si il est un bon candidat pour un bateau. Jusqu'à présent j'ai fait deux Paddleducks (Twin), un Paddle Duck (simple), le Bourdillat, un SEL (je ne sais pas pourquoi car on peut les acheter pour 3 fois rien?), un PM Research #2AM.Maintenant je suis occupé avec deux cylindres oscillateurs et avec un cylindre oscillateur twin que j'aurai du probablement construire en premier.
Merci,
Bellisimo
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derekwarner

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2020, 11:23:47 PM »


belli.... we are always to post in English here on MBM, so have copied this for you......regards Derek
..................


translated text.....
Thank you for your advice. I only started 6 weeks ago with the steamboats and I have no experience. I have 5 meters of 50mm pipe that currently serve me no good.  I built an engine of your friend Bourdillat, the guignol suits my autistic side very well.  I'm not sure if he's a good candidate for a boat. So far I've done two Paddleducks (Twin), a Paddle Duck (simple), the Bourdillat, an SEL (I don't know why because you can buy them for 3 times nothing?), a PM Research #2AM. Now I'm busy with two oscillator cylinders and with a twin oscillator cylinder that I probably had to build first
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rhavrane

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2020, 07:28:33 AM »

Bonjour Bellisimo,
The JPB steam machine has no reverse, it could be convenient for a speed boat. Sorry for your 5 meters of 50 mm pipe, but they can be useful only for gas tanks and oil separators.
As you seem to be a good machinist, why wouldn't you buy a smaller pièce of copper tube with a larger diameter to build your boiler, depending of course of your choice (horizontal or vertical) ?
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Raphaël
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2020, 01:43:10 PM »

Hello Raphael,
Copper tubing is not so easy to get, the supplier is only willing to sell full lengths.  As you say, it will not go to waste.  I have also 38mm and 44mm that will be used for gas tanks and other smaller steam/gas vessels.
I also got a length of 76mm tube that will used for the first two boilers, one horizontal and one vertical. Probably 3" dia and about 4" long.  I will finish the small oscillators first as I am great at starting things but not finishing them...   

I did draw the 'Puffin' in CAD last night so that the parts can be laser cut, should be a quick simple build for a small oscillator with a 50mm dia. boiler...   :embarrassed:

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rhavrane

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2020, 06:20:45 PM »

Bonjour Bellisimo,
I will follow with a great interest your progress, thank you in advance to sgare with us ok2
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Raphaël
Raphaëlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2020, 07:59:18 PM »

A little bit of progress from the weekend.

I bought a plank of wood from the local hardware, I am not sure what it is and it didn't say on the label either.  It has a fine straight grain that I thought looked quite scale and so I cut some strips on the table saw and planked the the deck.  When placed side by side there was almost no distinction between them and so I used a black Koki pen and ran that along each edge first.  The results are not bad but the wood has a fairly light colour.  I then decided to do some experiments....

The three patches are plain, no finish, then a 'Teak' varnish (it looks like runny poop in the tin) but it is still not dark enuf for my liking.  The last is just plain sanding sealer.  I wish I had used black paint along the edge of the strips to make a bit more definition.

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frazer heslop

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2020, 10:05:21 PM »

For the caulking lines I use thin black card glued between each plank
This company sell many sizes of copper tubing although postage maybe a problem . if you are quick import duties may not be a problem. They will sell by the inch sorry 25.4mm
http://www.m-machine-metals.co.uk/metals_database.html
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 03:43:55 PM »

Thanks Frazer,

I bought a piece of Mahogany at the lumber yard, it was reasonably clean compared to some of the rough sawn planks they had.  Pushed it through the saw to make some planks and stuck them down with black paper 0.02mm (about 0.001" thick) in between.  I will see if I can find some thicker stuff for experimenting.  It is quite distinct even with the darker wood and one coat of sanding sealer, makes me want to strip all the planks off and start again...   {:-{
You can make out my hurried sanding marks in the photo but less so in reality.

I had a look at M Machines Metals and just for interests sake offer the following figures:
From the UK (shipping would have been a couple of bucks?) the 3" x 16 swg is offered at GBP 2.52/in.  The copper tubing I sourced through the company from one of our suppliers worked out at GBP 0.69 per inch (delivered).   Granted its a lot of tubing but I'm a gonna build a lotta boilers...


Cheers.

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frazer heslop

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2020, 04:02:14 PM »

The card works well although its a bit of a fiddle
It looks like youve a few hulls on the go so a few boilers will come in very handy
keep well
cheers

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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2020, 04:29:24 PM »

I stuck the card to the edges with a little bit of glue stick first.  The brand I have is UHU but I'm sure it's the same for all the others out there.
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Geoff

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 05:24:52 PM »

For caulking I use electricians black tape. Lay have a half dozen planks on edge and press the tape on then turn over and cut between each plank and you get planks with self stuck plastic on one edge. The plastic is black all the way through.


It works well and can be scrapped to finish with a Stanley knife blade along with the deck. Joggling is also not as hard as it looks but the margin plank needs to be twice the width of the deck plank as half gets cut away anyway.


Cheers


Geoff
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 09:03:52 PM »

So, my goal for today was to better cut the strips (cut the strips better?).   I made a few modifications to my little table saw, added a finger board to push against the fence, another to push the job down and a bracket to hold the fence steady at the rear.  I will make some mods to this, it really needs a finger board to hold the material behind the blade too.  Tomorrow I will make a new finger board that is longer and can be adjusted behind the blade.  Will see if I can find some 1/8" MDF.

I will also stop by the shops on the way into work and see if I can find some slightly thicker card for the caulking. 

Geoff, thanks for the idea.  I will give it a try but the strips I cut are not uniform in thickness and so I hit them with the belt sander after planking.  I know, gotta be careful.....I wonder if the tape would clog the belt?
 
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 09:08:19 PM »

The CAD files for Rose are finished, hope to start cutting tomorrow.  If they look OK I'll post them here.
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aeronut

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2020, 09:42:29 AM »

A little inspiration for you - Choupette   :-))
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2020, 07:47:51 PM »

Here's a little progress on 'Rose'.  The parts seem to fit together well, I cut the bottom from card just to check the fit and it was not bad!  Considering it was computer generated...I made an assembly jig to hold everything straight while the bottom is built.  The formers have a little tape on them and this is glued to the jig.  When they need to be removed it is an easy task to pull the tape off.  The design is interlocking to some degree and the laser scribes a line where the bottom meets the keel.  In hindsight I should have made a template and then I could have scribed the line on both sides.


I'm beginning to see how these boats can take days and days to put together.  I'll post the CAD files here in a day or two when I am a little further along and more confident I have it right.


Thanks Aeronut, I am still some way away on the Choupette.   I have decided to do the deck over with mahogany but only after I give it a go on Rose first.  In one of you videos I see your Record Imp vice, I have one given to me too many years ago to remember, I still have it and still use it almost daily.

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frazer heslop

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2020, 10:52:48 PM »

Rose is a nice little build
What do you think of the table saw in the pic  Proxxon ?. I currently use a slitting saw in the mill not very good for the mill but cannot justify a Byrnes .
cheers
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2020, 09:37:26 PM »

I like my little Proxxon,  I really wanted a Dremel but they are hard to find.    It has cut many wing spars and leading edges, mostly spruce/bass/balsa (up to about 3/8"x1/4").  It can slice up 1/8 ply and maybe 1/4" if you go easy (lite ply or poplar play) but not birch ply.  I never run it for very long periods as it has no cooling for the motor to speak of.  The blades are quite pricey but I think it is worth buying a spare, maybe a rip saw blade when you purchase the machine.  Trouble is I don't know of another kind of saw like it.

I also have the smaller one (KS 230) which was a local on-line second hand goods site, paid about $50 for it.  That is a toy and I wouldn't recommend it.

I would really like to get the thicknesser for making the planking strips but alas...
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frazer heslop

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2020, 10:27:19 PM »

Thanks, i had wondered about them. I tend to use Birch ply the most although its usually 1/16
I keep looking at my electric plane to make a thicknesser from it.Just not sure how to do the anti kick back fingers at the moment.Although when I had the use of a planer/thicknesser I found that when making 1/16 planks they would chip out or shatter often so maybe a waste of time?
Before the next build I need to get set up for wood again
cheers
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2020, 05:07:53 PM »

I bought a drum sander ( https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-10-1-HP-Drum-Sander/G0716 ) kinda machine, was about $200 then.  What I have is not a Grizzly, it is far worse but I'm hoping it will do the job intended for it.  It is stored in a friends garage and as he is high risk I probably won't get to fetch it for a few months...   :o

The Proxxon is sat on a contractors saw which does the heavy lifting.  I like my Rockwell tools and would sell my mother for a Unisaw but alas...

The birch ply that I bought is really quite soft, the 1/8" you could roll into a tube, it's nothing like the birch ply I thought I was buying (probably why it was cheap).  Apparently this is 'normal' birch ply, has about the same color as the first deck planking and sands quite easily.


I am busy with the new steam plant and keep making mistakes, I think the steam port on the cylinder (drilling) is too close to the edge (1/16") and might not seal properly.  I will finish the engine exactly like is and if it doesn't run nice, will put it on the shelf with all the rest.  The two singles you see behind were the first 'double'.  I was dum and drilled the holes for the ports thru the frame, when I drilled the hole for the pivot pin it broke through both.  Not wanting to throw them in the dustbin I bored out the pivot hole and pressed a bush in.  This has effectively sealed off the drillings but the engine can only be single acting now.  Two new frames were made with a shorter con-rod so that the spacing of the ports could be made larger and then they won't break through on the pivot hole.

I have made two cylinders at 8mm bore and want to make two at 9mm, I can mix and match the parts between them to compare how they will run.  The base needs to be shorten at the output end to provide more clearance for the prop shaft.

And now a question, I have thought about fitting the deck to the hull.  If I add the stringers at the deck joint, glue the sides on (which is how i think it is done) and the deck doesn't match, what then?  Do I make the deck over size and fit it later, knock some of the sides off?  If I fit the deck and then run the stringers then I can place them that they line up perfectly but I guess the deck has to run over the sides as you don't want the sides poking through if the deck it too small??  Clear as mud?








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frazer heslop

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2020, 05:32:17 PM »

Thanks for the info,
My preference would be fit the deck and cover the joint with a rubbing strip thats if Im understanding you correctly
Iv made the same mistake with the port drilling in the past guess we live and learn
JP Duval ? has on his site some nice wobbler drawings.I scaled his marine engine down for my Basil Harleys Victoria buil
3/8 bore 1/2 inch stroke
I will see if I can find a link
This site has some good steam info although youve probably seen it
steam and steam models
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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2020, 09:01:26 PM »

The engine did start off life as the Basil Harley Double Oscillator for Victoria.  I drew most of it for fun as it seemed a nice size and complete but did not pay attention to where the ports were drilled...   

I will make one new frame as per his drawing for the single oscillator as I have a lot of free time at the moment.   {:-{     I have since discovered that this engine design is spread right across the web and there is at least one very well drawn example (also French, can't remember where) that I abandoned my drawing attempt.  I do like re-drawing them to preserve the designs.  I have done many airplane designs, some are on the 'other' groups.


I started drawing Victoria too as it looks like a nice size and fairly simple but came to the conclusion that you really needed the vac form hull.  It would be possible to make your own hull but I don't have that amount of energy.

I have seen so many websites now but nothing really gets you learning more than doing.  If I have a whole bunch of shelf queens when I am done, I will be fine with that.  These engine are currently numbers seven through nine from when lock-down started.  While we have technically returned to work, there really isn't much going on.
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frazer heslop

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2020, 10:51:22 PM »

The hull for Victoria is reasonably easy to do .What ever you do dont buy the vac formed hull from the UK supplier its junk and thats been polite about it.I sent it back and built plank on frame using 1/16 ply
The other problem from memory with the vac formed hull is its about 25mm shorter than the drawings and even at its original size things are a tight fit.If I was doing it again I would build it at least 1/2 as big again
I used the Duval engine  as Basils simply has to much soldering involved and with my luck one of the passage ways would get blocked.
For a single single acting engine I pinched the little loco Crackers engine design with a few mods it punches above its weight and has an inbuilt trunk guide that makes a big difference to the engines life span
James Senfit also used the trunk guide idea on his Bijou and Thimble engines .I built his Thimble engine at 2/3 size 2mm bore and stroke its about the size of a match head
On simple wobblers K&N brass tube makes very good cylinders as its very true and it saves a bit of machining as well as a lot of weight around the pivot a point often overlooked although Im guilty on my last engine
When making wobblers I like to use a simple jig to drill the port face holes its just more accurate for me at least
I built a couple of Cracker T locos to try some ideas out for burners using a straight through flue and Im happy with the results so this is the way I may build River Princess boiler sort of suck it and see.
The last model plane I built was a Bowden free flight design with a AM 2.5 diesel all old school
Its always better to cut metal although I often doubt my sanity over dumb mistakes but thats what I get for sticking to fag packet drawings
Iv not done that dirty four lettered word for sometime  %)  thank god

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belli

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Re: A few steam questions
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2020, 10:45:29 PM »

Hey,
Found the Victoria drawings, they were from NZ.   I don't know why I thought he was French...
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/ensemble-marin-oscillant.pdf
I arrived at the same conclusion as you regarding the soldering, I just don't trust myself not to ruin a good set of parts with my poor soldering skills.  The little double is all screwed together, seems safer that way.  I should be able to continue with it tomorrow.


I have the Cracker plans on standby...
I have used the K&S tubing before, I bought a pack of K&S oddments, longest piece was about 3" and lots of different sizes.  The single acting cylinder will be made with a piece about 3/8" bore.  I've wondered how the mass of the oscillating cylinder would affect performance, in theory it wouldn't as all the energy taken to accelerate the mass should be returned on the deceleration.  Haven't reached a conclusion in my head.

"Thimble engine at 2/3 size 2mm bore and stroke its about the size of a match head", that's insane!   I think about 6mm would be the smallest practical size I could manage, smaller than that would hurt my fingers.   As for drilling the ports, all the sizes are done with CAD and the mill has a DRO.  I can put the holes exactly where they shouldn't be...

My goal for tomorrow is to source some acid for pickling the copper as I want to start with the boiler construction.  I can gethydrochloric very easily and I can get battery acid (sulphuric diluted) fairly easily.  I am looking for citric but have only found small containers at the food mart used for baking (about 4 oz. for a $1).   I might just buy a bunch of those and get on with it.  I cut two pieces of 3" tubing, one is about 3.5" and the other about 4.5".  I'll start with those and see from there, I'll post a sketch here and perhaps you could offer some suggestions.  2mm?? :o

Cheers,
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