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Author Topic: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )  (Read 980 times)

derekwarner

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2020, 10:11:59 AM »

Mike....


It was a Will Everard model posting somewhere that caught my eye & I have read as much as I can find since and also joined the Facebook Group specifically for Thames Sail Barges.......[I see tomaracks postings there]


From the little detail available, many images do suggest the rudder blade was suspended on those two [2] pintals without any form of locking them down


So your theory around the safety chains appears most logical :-))


Derek   
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Derek Warner

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SteveH

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2020, 12:26:13 PM »

I am not a model RC sailor - I race in RG65 and IOM classes - but I can tell you this:


One of the challenges of designing rigs for RC sailboats is that you need to have a simple way to tack your sails - wind will fill the sails from port or starboard depending on where you want to go, right? So when tacking, the sails need to pass from starboard to port and back with ease, even in very low winds. So, the easiest way to do this is to avoid overlapping sails, so that each individual sail can move from one side to the other without touching any other sail or any part of the standing and running rigging.


I think this is the reason why the from jib is rigged upside-down: so that it can tack freely.


Regards,
Thomas Armstrong


Thanks for that Thomas, I can see your point. No doubt the jibs supplied for the model  were to scale, but they would not behave like the real thing when trying to make the model sail, so maybe the previous owner modified the rig to avoid any overlapping.That still doesn't explain why the stays are mounted lower than fullsize practice, but now I'm thinking maybe the model was originally rigged correctly,with the upper jib the right way up and on a stay to the topmast head, and the lower jib on a stay to the mainmast head.If the height of the rig then tended to lay the model over in wind gusts, the stay positions were then lowered, and the upper sail upended to avoid its foot fouling the stay beneath. Unless the previous owner pops up on this forum to explain, that will have to suffice!


So, now I plan to learn how to operate my wife's sewing machine and make two new jibs from some fine cotton that I have scavenged. I will rerig the stays to their correct positions and try sailing first with lower jib only, then with both, and see what happens. ok2
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SteveH

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2020, 01:26:23 PM »

Mike....


It was a Will Everard model posting somewhere that caught my eye & I have read as much as I can find since and also joined the Facebook Group specifically for Thames Sail Barges.......[I see tomaracks postings there]


From the little detail available, many images do suggest the rudder blade was suspended on those two [2] pintals without any form of locking them down


So your theory around the safety chains appears most logical :-))


Derek


     Believe me, they are kicking chains (see my reply#12 ) to stop the rudder slamming about when anchored and possibly damaging the steering gear. Smaller barges had one, larger coasting barges like HYDROGEN had two.When not in use and slacked off, they would tend to swing around and bash the transom, so the slack bight of the chain has a line attached and this is pulled up tight to the rudderhead usually with a small block.
     The rudder would normally pivot on three or four gudgeons on the sternpost, with a single long iron pin going down through all of them. This would have to break  and come out to allow the rudder to part from the stern post, so would only be likely if the barge were rammed from astern, or grounded on rocks.
       I've now realised that I haven't actually got any kicking chains on my model, so I will have to look out for some suitable chain. The trouble with detailing is you never know when to stop....... :-)
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MikeK

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2020, 02:49:32 PM »


     Believe me, they are kicking chains (see my reply#12 ) to stop the rudder slamming about when anchored and possibly damaging the steering gear. Smaller barges had one, larger coasting barges like HYDROGEN had two.When not in use and slacked off, they would tend to swing around and bash the transom, so the slack bight of the chain has a line attached and this is pulled up tight to the rudderhead usually with a small block.
     The rudder would normally pivot on three or four gudgeons on the sternpost, with a single long iron pin going down through all of them. This would have to break  and come out to allow the rudder to part from the stern post, so would only be likely if the barge were rammed from astern, or grounded on rocks.
       I've now realised that I haven't actually got any kicking chains on my model, so I will have to look out for some suitable chain. The trouble with detailing is you never know when to stop....... :-)


Sounds like a man who knows what he is talking about !
Also just realised that my barge is also missing said chains, now where did I put my odds and sods tin ?




Mike
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tarmstro

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2020, 03:02:49 PM »

Glad to help!


Another bit of advice. I see many model scale RC sailboats failing to sail properly because people try to make them sail exactly as the real thing. Above explanation about rudder being too slow is one example. But the error I see everywhere is not adding enough righting moment AND lateral resistance.


Please take a look at this racing IOM class sailboat: http://www.allradiosailboats.com/design/areo  (there are many others in that database)
The long vertical fin is there for lateral resistance, and ALL the ballast is in the form of a bulb at the bottom so that righting moment is highest possible.
These two facts together allow for huge sails on a 1-meter 4kg sailboat.


My suggestion is: instead of adding ballast inside your model's hull, install a removable fin+bulb. Removable so you can still display your beautiful scale model in your house or office.
You don't need such a long fin - maybe 20cm long with 750gr ballast will do - just add enough ballast/bulb for your model to sit correctly in the water. You can even buy fin+bulbs from local suppliers...


These guys have some ready to install bulbs and fins: https://www.sailsetc2.com/index.php/products-by-category/boat-parts-materials/hull-appendages.html
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roycv

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2020, 03:47:28 PM »

Hi, if you do decide to make your own sails take care as to where you cut them from in the cloth.  Being triangular shaped the longest edge should be with the weft of the material i.e. the part that does not stretch.  If you do not do this then when hanging in position you will have curve in the cloth that will not go away.  I make a lot of my own sails and it is an easy mistake to make.Roy
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warspite

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2020, 03:51:52 PM »

On my vessels 750g will make them submarines, a case of 'Pirates of the Caribbean' the flying Dutchman - except they wouldn't be able to come up
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SteveH

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Re: HFM?? Thames barge
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2020, 01:14:50 PM »

Hello, I think the HFM Thames Barge was smaller than your dimensions but you are not wrong.

Before the kit came out Harvey prouced a black plastic hull of about your size.  It was in two vertical sections.  I think the HFM kit is to 1 : 48 whereas most of the large ones are at 1 : 24 scale.  This hull fell between the two, but there are lots of figures in this scale.

I bought a hull which came with Lee boards as well for the princely sum of £2.50 at an exibition, I think he was pleased to clear them!  I never got round to it but passed the plastic hull and lee boards on to a friend who built a good model of her. 

I asked Harvey if she was modelled on a particular barge and he said it was Venta.  (I have the plans for her).
I am sure others can help with the sailing characteristics.
regards
Roy


Roy, an unmade HFM barge kit has just come up on eBay, and I was able to check dimensions with the seller and confirm that mine is an HFM kit. Given what you paid for your hull and leeboards it will be ineresting to see what the kit fetches today!
Regards
Steve
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roycv

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2020, 06:45:06 PM »

Hi Steve you said your model hull length was 33 inches.  The HFM kit is 24 inches according to a friend who built one. 

As I said the 33 inch black plastic hull was not a kit just 2 sheets of plastic moulded.  Also I think you mentioned how 1 ; 33 figures suited the scale and 33 inch long hull would be about that size, give or take a bit.
kind regards
Roy
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SteveH

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2020, 07:41:00 PM »

Hi Roy. Bit of confusion, I said my model was about 33inches overall including rudder and bowsprit, the hull is about 25 inches, so it definitely is the HFM kit.The eBay seller is offering it with plans for the barge Lady Daphne, which I think must be an additional item. By my reckoning the scale of the kit is somewhere between 1:35  and 1:40, it doesnt appear to be stated on the box. I wonder how much it will fetch?
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roycv

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2020, 08:17:27 PM »

Hi well most Thames Barges are built at around hull length 48 inches long and they are regarded as 1/2 inch to the foot, or 1 : 24th scale.  You can work out the rest.
I think Harvey only made a few at the scale I mentioned and they are rarely seen.
Regards
Roy


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tomarack

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2020, 09:57:20 AM »

short summary - barge model classes (AMBO)

 
 1/24th Scale                 Bowsprit and Staysail             Coastal
 Hull length                    Under 45”                             45” – 50”
 Mast height                   Maximum 40”                      Maximum 47”
 Head stick                     Under 5 ½”                           Under 5 ½”
 Sprit                               Maximum 30”                     Maximum 33”
 
 30”                                      Approx. 1/35th – 1/40th scale with a hull length under 30”, a class originally based on the HFM KATHLEEN and including the Richard Webb KITTY semi-scale model but now encompassing all small barges.
 
 
   Unless you are building a true scale model in respect of hull form, sail plan and rigging – then the following specification should be followed:
 
 
30” class 
 
Hull length                    Under 30”
 
Mast Height                  Under 30”
 
Head Stick                    Under 3 ½”
 
Sprit                             maximum 22 ½”


The above standardisation of specification is an attempt to prevent ‘super large’ non scale rigs being used and causing arguments on the fairness of the racing - unless on a scale model of a barge that sailed with a ‘big rig’.
 
   Therefore do not be disturbed if you see a tape measure being taken to various parts of your barge during a meeting!
    12”                      Fun class with 12” hull length in either Bowsprit, Staysail or Coastal configuration
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roycv

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2020, 10:26:46 AM »

Thanks for that Tomorack, good information.
regards
Roy
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warspite

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2020, 01:42:54 PM »

Yesterday on Talking pictures was a film 'Pool of London', there was a couple of scenes at the end (I only saw the last 15 mins) of Thames barges where a character sneeked aboard snuck off one.
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roycv

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2020, 01:51:40 PM »

Hi Warspite out of shear coincidence I watched som of that being filmed.  It was on Tower Bridge with my parents and we watched as Bonar Colleano went up some steps on the bridge into an office,  It took quite a few takes before it was OK'd.  I suppose 1949?  Of course we watched in full colour!

regards
Roy
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SteveH

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2020, 02:28:23 PM »

Ref Reply #36:-
Many thanks for that Tomorack, that's just the information I was looking for :-))
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tomarack

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2020, 08:27:03 PM »

Hi,
       I have to say here  , Ray Wood wrote me (as for the model barges classes at present )


Yes I'm sure the dimensions you posted are correct 😄 maybe years ago the barges were scrutinized properly at races, but the attraction of the barge racing it is now conducted in a very relaxed manner which all say if we don't win 👍😉⛵

Greetings
Tom

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dodes

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Re: Thames sailing barge ( HFM ? )
« Reply #42 on: Today at 08:55:39 PM »

The rudder is held by a steel rod passing through the pintels on the rudder and the stern post, I know that because I helped fit a new one on the Mirosia . We had to use a 14lb maul to drive it down because her stern post had bent slightly with old age. Also most barges had one kicking strap aft, as previously said to stop the rudder juddering against the steering gear and keeping the master awake in his bunk, secure it and then turn the rudder into it and then put the locking pin down on the steering gear. May be of interest one of the bigger barges built was the Sarah Smeed off Faversham owned by Smeed and Deans, a 241 grt schooner rigged barge, 125.7 x 25.7 x 11ft. Spent my youth sailing on them, with some of the older well known ex trading masters of the time.
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