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Author Topic: Lesro Javelin  (Read 1908 times)

zooma

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Lesro Javelin
« on: August 06, 2020, 03:29:24 pm »

Whilst hunting for another Lesro Rapier to fettle,  I came across a model with a very similar looking hull that was the same length as the Rapier and it also had that same distinctive pointed bow.


As this hull looks so similar my Rapier, I am guessing that it could be a Lesro Javelin?


Does anyone know if these two Lesro models shared the same hull by any chance?






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rnli12

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2020, 03:47:24 pm »

Hi,
From memory i think the Rapier was slightly smaller than the Javelin.
Rich
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Regards,

Rich

zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2020, 04:00:50 pm »

Hi Rich,


The Rapier and Javelin both measure just over 39" long (100cm), but I have seen another Lesro "open top" speedster that is smaller and still available as a new kit called the Arrow.


It does look very similar but it is only 25.7" ( 654mm) long.


Maybe the Arrow is a smaller version of the original Javelin, in the same way that the Stiletto is a smaller version of the Rapier?


Lesro looked to have scaled down these two original models for those that that preferred a smaller size version (probably a bigger market for slightly smaller boat kit) although both vary slightly from their bigger original family members.


Maybe the Stiletto and Arrow share similar hulls to each other as well?


Stay safe.


Bob.
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Dave_S.

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2020, 08:00:40 pm »

I have a half-built Lesro Arrow upstairs, marketed by SLEC now.


(It's only half-built because it's not long since I started it!)
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2020, 10:07:18 pm »

I have a half-built Lesro Arrow upstairs, marketed by SLEC now.


(It's only half-built because it's not long since I started it!)


Ha - funnily enough, I have an Arrow that has made even less progress than yours - the plastic sleeve is still wrapped around the wood  %)


I will have to see how much multi-tasking I can do - but I want to make a start on drawing out the keel and bulkhead shapes for a Swordsman next - whilst still working on my long term restoration of a Chris Craft Corvette and finishing my Remora before starting on another new project........or at least that would be the sensible thing to do  :-))
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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2020, 07:26:50 am »

My Arrow build is having a rest for a few days, had a lot of other stuff (mainly music related) to do, and I have three builds going on at the moment, roughly at the same stage, so I pick up whichever i feel like. Yesterday that was the the small SLEC (Dave M) Huntsman, but the Arrow is still on the bench.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 11:08:33 am »

I ran the Rapier with an S50 prop this time instead of the 45X that I have been using and think the speed may have been fractionally slower (not enough to make any real difference), but the run times were slightly better.


Next time I will try a 40X and see what that does when still running on two cells.  The smaller prop will suite 3 cell running too, but I already have enough speed for our club lake so it would make an interesting test that I may find a helpful reference when I take it to a bigger area of open water.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 10:31:20 pm »

Sorry, my last comment should have been posted on the thread about my Rapier, but I sent it from the lake using my iPhone and managed to post it on this thread instead by mistake!


I have taken a punt and bought the model that I have seen (hoping that it will be a Javelin) and bought it from "the bay".  The seller has not claimed that this boat is a Javelin, but it very much looks like one and it is the same length as the Rapier, so I am hoping that when it arrives later this week it really is a Javelin!


If it does turn out to be a Javelin I will be very happy as both of these early LesRo models are now quite hard to find (apparently a lot more Javelin kits were sold than Rapier kits) and they will fill a gap in my classic model boat collection from the '60's.


The boat will need some work to restore it. The reason why I keep buying models like this that need restoring is because I cannot buy a new unbuilt kit (and this would be my preferred choice) or even a really nice smart example that does not need any work, but this one does not look too bad (in the pictures!) so here's hoping that it will not be another "basket case" as I have had my fair share of those recently and would really like to have an "easy ride" for a change.


The model currently has an 850 motor in it.  I have a spare brushless motor (exactly the same type that I have just fitted in my Rapier) and as long as my "hunch" is right and it does turn out to be a Javelin I will fit this motor as part of the re-fit as it should give a very similar performance in both boats.


........if it is not a Javelin, I will sell it and keep looking until I find one - but here's hoping I have found one!   :-))






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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2020, 05:01:01 pm »

A rather large box was delivered yesterday afternoon, and inside it was indeed a LesRo Javelin!


The old eyes worked well enough on this occasion and correctly identified it when I first saw it at a "buy it now" price on eBay.


A direct comparison between this and my Rapier gave positive proof that they are almost the same boat - only the superstructure is different, but the two hulls are absolutely the same as each other.


Anyone wanting to convert a Javelin to a Rapier (or a Rapier to a Javelin) would only need to copy the different superstructure as there are no other differences, and this is good news for me as I like the way the Rapier drives and now I will be able to compare the Javelin (with the "kit position" prop shaft and rudder) against my Rapier's shortened shaft and forward rudder position.


I will be using exactly the same type of Turnigy 3648-1450 motor in this Javelin as it has more than enough performance for the boat.
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ChrisF

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2020, 06:49:56 pm »

That's good news Bob, another one added to the collection.

Chris
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2020, 07:41:49 pm »

That's good news Bob, another one added to the collection.

Chris


I was lucky Chris - it could have gone horribly wrong and I may have bought a nice looking model - but not the one I wanted to add to my classic 60's model boat fleet.


Even after I had bought it, I kept checking the eBay listing and had some doubts,  the seller never claimed it was a Javelin (maybe he didn't know what it was?) and the pictures were not clear enough to be certain - but I "went for it" anyway and kept my fingers crossed.


When it actually arrived and the hull matched the Rapier hull so perfectly I was able to relax..........and remove the Torpedo 850 motor, HobbyWing dual speed controller (made to control twin electric motors of a smaller size) and generally start to give it "a good coat of looking at".


I am selling some of my scale models as I am running out of space, and my interest has changed back to the models that I remember enjoying seeing and running in the 1960's. They are comparatively simple and usually have a lot less detail or need so much time spent scratch building small parts - but they do make white water and they make me smile  :-))


Stay safe!


Bob.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2020, 09:36:30 pm »

I am not expecting any success with this appeal, but if anyone has a set of Javelin plans that they would like to sell (or send me a PDF copy of) it would be very helpful as my "new to me" Javelin never had the under-hull rails fitted and I would like to see the spacing and sizes of the original.


Purely as a matter of interest, the building instructions (for the Rapier and the Javelin) would be good to see too as I suspect they would read almost the same as each other apart from the superstructure assembly.   I could easily print a copy of these if anyone can send me a copy of them  - even on my temperamental old A4 printer!



My guess is that the under hull rails were probably made from 3/16 x 3/16 hardwood (and three on each side?) so I can probably work out the spacing near enough to look right. Maybe my "same hull" Rapier should have had them fitted too (?) but it certainly goes well enough without them so I doubt they could contribute much to the performance, but they do look good and it would be nice to make the model look authentic.


I will be changing the very fine section gunwale and deck rails (about 1/16 by 1/16) that were fitted to my Javelin to 1/8 x 1/4 as they look far too "puney"for the boat so I may as well add the under-hull rails at the same time prior to re-painting it.


Stay safe.


Bob.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2020, 09:16:37 pm »

I was hoping to fit the same Turnigy 3648-1450 motor into this Javelin that works so well in the Rapier.


Sadly this motor is no longer available from HK and so I am a little stuck as I am not an expert on brushless motors and I would prefer to stay with what I know works well in the same hull.


Do we have any brushless experts (most brushless users will know more about them than myself) on here that can advise on an alternative source of this same motor, or of one that should be able to give a similar performance?







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ChrisF

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2020, 10:26:00 pm »

Hi Bob

I think a lot of Turnigy motors are out of stock at the moment. Overlander Batteries do a 3542 1250kV which is pretty close and you could always run on a 3S LiPo.

Chris
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2020, 11:37:38 am »

Hi Bob

I think a lot of Turnigy motors are out of stock at the moment. Overlander Batteries do a 3542 1250kV which is pretty close and you could always run on a 3S LiPo.

Chris


Hi Chris,



I really must find out a bit more about brushless motors, rather than taking "pot luck" on what "looks right" or has been know to work well in other models (although to be fair - this has held me in "good stead" so far !).


My guess has been that the first two numbers in the motor spec is the diameter of the can, so (using my 3648-1450 motor for this analysis) my motor would have a 36mm diameter can (body).


What the next two numbers are used to designate (in this case 48) is currently unknown to me - but perhaps it has something to do with the windings or the gauge of wire used in the windings?


After the dash (-) I read the number as being the KV rating, so in his instance my motor would have a 1450KV rating.  Even that is a bit of a mystery - what does that mean in practical terms?


Would a high KV motor of the type that I usually choose naturally give more power, and if so , is this because it can spin faster but may not have as much torque as the same motor with a lower KV rating?


If this is the case, a lower KV motor could be more suitable for turning a slightly bigger propeller and could be more thrifty on power consumption giving longer run times and possibly without giving away too much speed?




I am basing all of my reasoning on what I know works with brushed 540 type motors that I used for many years when I was younger and racing r/c model cars.


Less windings would give a lot more torque.


Lots of windings would give a smoother motor with less torque.




I need to get my head around how the brushless motor descriptions relate to their performance (in simple terms as described above for 540 brushed motors).


Stay safe.


Bob.
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tonyH

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2020, 12:02:41 pm »

Javelin pic montage with Rapier as comparison. Before and after mechanical bits.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2020, 01:04:14 pm »

Thanks for posting the pictures for me Tony.


Both both boats measure 100cm and share the same hull, but in the pictures the Javelin looks shorter - not sure why?


The Javelin is a bit of a mystery insomuch that it came with a welded steel motor mount for an ic engine, and has holes bored in the bulkheads and stern for the exhaust, but there are no signs of where a fuel tank may have been mounted, and unusually there is not even the slightest hint of a fuel smell or any of the staining that inevitably happens to an ic powered model boat over time.


A new Torpedo 850 motor was fitted, but the HobbyWing speed controller fitted was the type designed to control a pair of smaller electric motors and I would not be sure that it could handle the large motor that was fitted.


The propeller actually touches the water scoop (so could not turn freely) and the new rudder scrapes the bottom of the hull and would need a small washer or spacer fitted to allow to to move freely without rubbing on the hull bottom.


The hull itself has a bit of a blotchy paint finish sprayed on it and so it has been nicely sealed ready for priming and a final paint application, but the two yellow hatch covers have been painted and finished to a really high quality finish  - something that I would struggle to come close to achieving!


The hull has an M5 shaft fitted and came with some spare props (one was M4) that are all very useful.


I am delighted with my purchase and the parts that came with it that will all get used (not necessarily on this boat), but its history would be nice to learn as it is such an enigma .  IC powered at one stage - but maybe not run?  Converted to electric power, but probably not run.  Beautifully sprayed and lacquered hatch covers, (with decals)  but with unfinished hull painting.


This will make a lovely model boat ........but its history will continue to be a puzzle. 
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2020, 11:32:36 am »

Like waiting for a bus - you wait for ages, and then two (or three) come together.


There is another Javelin for sale on eBay at the moment if anyone is interested?


This one still has the 61 size glow engine in it - I suspect almost all Javelin models were powered by glow engines back when they were current.



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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2020, 12:24:38 pm »

A couple more pics!
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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2020, 12:31:17 pm »

Hi Zooma
You have workout the brushless motor numbering pretty good !!
In the case of the 3648-1450kv, the 36 is the diameter, the 48 is the main body length and the big one , the kv is the number of rpm's per volt.
The power rating is on the maximum voltage(6S=22.5 volts).
Also the current rating is on the maximum worked out with the voltage.
The only trouble is it's all worked out using plane props!!!!
No info with using boat props !!!

But the 3648-1450 is a beast against the 3542-1450.

I think the 3542 only handles 4S.

Canabus
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tonyH

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2020, 01:22:33 pm »

Hi Bob,
Irvine 61 gives about 1.7 hp and Super Tigre is about the same, both at about 16,000 revs. Equivalent to about 1200 watts! You probably knew this anyway but it's a decent number to play with innit!
Tony
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2020, 10:33:14 am »

Hi Zooma
You have workout the brushless motor numbering pretty good !!
In the case of the 3648-1450kv, the 36 is the diameter, the 48 is the main body length and the big one , the kv is the number of rpm's per volt.
The power rating is on the maximum voltage(6S=22.5 volts).
Also the current rating is on the maximum worked out with the voltage.
The only trouble is it's all worked out using plane props!!!!
No info with using boat props !!!

But the 3648-1450 is a beast against the 3542-1450.

I think the 3542 only handles 4S.

Canabus


Thanks Canabus,


The second pair of digits are the missing link - they give the motors body length!  Thanks for that - it all makes more sense now. (obvious really - especially after it has been pointed out to me!).


So far, I have mainly "got by" with what "looks right" and what I have seen and used  in the past.  I must have been lucky because everything has worked so far - but that may just be because brushless motors are inherently powerful and so have a fair amount of flexibility.


I must admit that I do prefer the "look" of a longer can motor - longer armatures and longer magnets have got to be better surely?...and I have never had a problem finding enough space to fit any brushless motor so far - in fact, most brushless motors look totally "lost" in all my model boat hulls.


A pair of short brushless motors are on the way to try in my (never ending....) Corvette restoration. I am fitting them as it has been suggested that they will "do the job" for me and I am interested to see how well they can perform in such a large "barge" of a boat.


I know that a single 3648-1450 would shove the Corvette along OK, but I have no idea how to work out what PAIR of smaller motors would be needed to give the same sort of power output?  I should move this "twin motor" topic over to the Corvette thread rather than discuss it on this Javelin thread so you may well see this subject over there where it would be a lot more relevant....but your help with the motor demarkation has been very helpful - thank you!  :-))


Stay safe,


Bob.
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zooma

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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2020, 10:44:19 am »

Hi Bob,
Irvine 61 gives about 1.7 hp and Super Tigre is about the same, both at about 16,000 revs. Equivalent to about 1200 watts! You probably knew this anyway but it's a decent number to play with innit!
Tony


Thanks Tony,


That is an interesting statistic to be aware of as I understand the power of a 61 glow motor much better than that of a brushless motor.......at the moment!


All I need now is a simple formulae showing me how to work out the watts that brushless motors can make - and then I will know everything that I need to know about the power output of brushless motors when choosing one to fit into any model boat.


Stay safe!


Bob.
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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2020, 11:10:56 am »

Hi Zooma
Power (Watts) is volts times Amps !!!
As for twin brushless motors drop to motor body length and you drop power.

Comparing the 3648-1450kv, the Banggood Surpass Hobby C3542-1450kv is 1050Watts on 4S pulling 78Amps.
I have just put one in my old speed boat(740mm length)  to up it from the C3542-1250kv.

Prop is a 3 blade 28mm.

These dam good motors, I bought one as a trail and another three after that!!

Canabus
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Re: Lesro Javelin
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2020, 11:25:36 am »

Bob

Twin motors over single don't really add much if anything to top speed and in theory will increase acceleration but that is usually enough with one brushless motor anyway. You could go slightly less power for each of the motors but as space isn't an issue I wouldn't bother. Better to have a bit more power than required as it can be regulated by the throttle or batteries.


Number of engines etc. has more relevance with full sized boats whereas with brushed motors they are usually over powered and having more than one motor is more to do with a scale model matching the full sized. My thoughts anyway, which could be wrong!

Chris
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