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Author Topic: Cheddar Proteus  (Read 10247 times)

KNO3

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2021, 08:51:07 am »

Those pins are a great looking detail.
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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2021, 03:27:54 am »

I continued to work on the grates. 

Assembled 4 sets, then I worked on the fit by using card as a template and then
cutting the grate to match. 

Tested the fit in the boat and then added a deck up in the bow. 

Here are the pics.

More to come.

Jim


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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2021, 05:16:07 pm »

Problems on the water   :((   

I took her out for a run over the weekend. 

Let's see if I can explain the situation. 

The boiler was filled to the top of the site-glass  - I could just see the bottom of the bubble. 
I filled my water tanks - about 350ML total.  I steamed her up.  Took about 5 minutes to 60 PSI. 

Then I put her in the water and ran her around for about 15 minutes.  Brought her back by the shore,
and noticed that the "low-water" led from the controller was flashing.  I also saw that the boiler height
was still high on the glass (no air-bubble visible) and pressure was right at 60psi.  The hand valves were all in the
right place.  The servo-controlled bypass valve was in the proper position and I could see some bubbles running thru it.
So this tells me the pump was pumping and that the tubes were not blocked.   
-- What I think is happening -- 
 I think that the  diameter of the tube running from the pump over to the servo-bypass valve is constricted by the couplings and
the cones used. So even if servo-valve is open there is still enough resistance to push back into the boiler.  The manual valve on the
pump is open 6 turns, so that should not be a factor. 

-- What to try -- 
I am going to first of all go thru the couplings and ream out the cones to maximize the diameter.  Then try things out.

After that I will see how she runs and try again.
More to come -

Jim

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derekwarner

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2021, 12:06:02 am »

Well.... {:-{


1. open the window in the Guests bathroom [ensuring adequate air flow to minimize any chance of CO2 poisoning]
2. place the vessel in the test tank ensuring you repeat the water filling and valve positions as noted below
3. secure the vessel with adequate sponson buffers & ropes
4. light the boiler & get a large cup of coffee
5. repeat previous voyage nominal engine run time & speeds.........wait & recheck to establish a low water danger signal light
6. if you find a danger signal light alarm, open the hand pump & perform a few strokes??

7. the Controller >>:-( mmmmm.........maybe needs investigation or bypass...
8. as you have established time run values, is the controller....... is it really necessary?.... unless you need to be alarmed
....at the danger signal light when she returns to shore, to be sure  %)
 
Let us know how you go, or alternately provide a sketch of the controller circuit including the switch/float method  <*< of detecting the water level

Derek
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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2021, 06:30:03 am »

Hi Jim was the flashing light the one on the abc unit to say that water was required in the boiler or was it the separate high intensity red led that indicates the water level in the water tanks is low? Bearing in mind everything was previously running well, it suggests something simple has changed so as Jim proposes a test run under close observation would be wise to gather evidence to confirm or make an alternative diagnosis before getting the tools out. Hope all goes well, Dave
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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2021, 11:38:12 pm »

Dave and Derek,
Thanks for the feedback. 
The LED that was flashing was the "Tank is almost empty" warning. 
So it turns out that I pumped all the tank water into the boiler, and the bypass
did not open enough to accomplish what it was supposed to do.

So I saw a possible problem with the flow in the bypass and also the adjustment of the servo-bypass valve it self. 

I took the bypass piping off the boat and looked at both ends - They are vary different.

Photo1 -  The pump connection.
Photo2 -  The end at the Servo-valve. 
Photo3 - There is a short piece that makes up a 90deg ell and connects to the servo valve - I took that off and
             found there was a yet another size hole. 
Photo 4 and 5 shows the continued constriction. 


SO - I reamed out the cones at the elbow connection end and opened them up to the maximum, the ID of the
tube. 

Then I took out the servo-valve and re-positioned the arm to better align with the servo.   
 I am beginning to think that I might need a longer arm on the servo to get more rotation on the valve, but I am
going to live with the one I have in place for now.  It is small compact, and seems to work well. 
Strength and speed as not really really a factor. 

With all that done, and the system back installed, I added 350ML to the water tanks, Then I fired it up. 
Good steam after 5 min, smooth running.  The water level in the boiler was where it was at the end of Saturday's run -
very full.  Higher than I would normally go. 

The system started in by-pass mode, and it took almost 30 minutes to get the water level back to the middle of the glass.Then the system called for water for the boiler, the servo valve closed  and the water level crept back up.  I checked the level
in the make-up tanks and it was full at the point that the boiler was starting to ask for more. 

Then she ran for another 30 minutes with the servo valve opening and closing.  before the "out of water" light came on. 
At this point There was still another 15 minutes of water in the boiler (to get to the bottom of the glass). 

The end result - so far - 75 minutes full run time - using a slow-medium cruising speed.The displacement oiler still had a little sludge in it. 
The condensate tank was full and spitting out the stack.  (need to do something about that).

So I should be able to have ample cruising speed and my usual attention span of about an hour without any problem. 
Lots of whistle toots, and slow cruising by the little ones at the side of the pond.
After all - that is what we do this for - right? 

I am going to move on to the rest of the decorating and crew selection. 
More runs to come. 

Thanks for reading.
Jim
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derekwarner

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2021, 02:05:01 am »

Sorry Jim...it failed to register :embarrassed: , that you were talking about a Cheddar ABC controller ........... Derek
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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2021, 03:33:25 am »

Derek,   

 :-)) That is what we, here in the States, call "A penetrating glimpse into the obvious". 
or a Brain Fart.   {-)
But that is OK, your insights are always welcome, and your experience provides a knowledge base that
far exceeds mine.

Some day we really should try a Zoom Gathering for the forum.  Just to be able to all say "Hello" 

Regards to all -

Jim 

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KBIO

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2021, 07:32:13 am »

hello !
Investigation , Evaluation , Execution,! Well done JP ! :-))
One question though : do you really think that the difference in diameter of the cones have an impact on this low flow rate ?
Always a pleasure to follow up your posts !
And regards. :-)

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2021, 11:28:16 pm »

HOT HOT HOT
It is 100 F in Denver this week.  And one of my Air Conditioning systems needs a part. 
We had to move out of the upstairs bedrooms and into the guest room on the first floor. 
My shop in the garage just has a fan blowing hot air around.   ARRGH    >:-o

But by working in the mornings and quitting before lunch, I got the floor grates finished up and installed. 
Then I built a deck up in the bow to cover the stuff up there more completely. 


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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2021, 11:34:33 pm »

I also built a couple of boxes to cover the servo valves. 


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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2021, 11:41:43 pm »

And finally the Crew comes on board! 


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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2021, 02:39:41 am »

So 

The last bench test before she joins the rest of the fleet. 

When last we posted about the engine and boiler feed system, I was getting a little frustrated with the filling system. 
The ABC unit from Cheddar was working as expected, it was the management of the bypass valves
that was giving me fits. 

There are two bypass valves.  One is located on the outlet of the pump, and diverts the direct boiler feed
to a side outlet.  The manual on the steam plant tells me that without an automatic system, one should just
experiment with this valve and see what setting diverts the amount of water needed to match the amount consumed
by the way you run the boat. 

The second valve is servo controlled by the boiler feed controller.  When the level in the sight glass falls below the sensor,
this valve will go to the "closed" position, this should force the boiler to fill and the valve will then "open"  which should recirculate the
water thru the pump. 

The problem I was having was caused by the servo valve not completely closing.  So the bypass on/off failed to
work correctly.  It took a number tries to get the valve close to the correct position.  Actually, it still lets a little water thru,
but I found that I can adjust the first valve a little more closed, and achieve a balance.  As I got tired of trying to get the nuts tightened andhaving things slip.

When "CLOSED" - or calling to refill the boiler,  the resistance from the boiler is less than the resistance thru the valve,
and the boiler fills.  When "OPEN" or calling to bypass, the water flows thru the tanks and back to the pump.  So in the end
I found that just a quarter-turn open on the primary pump valve is all that is needed. 

In her last test run on the bench:

Boiler filled with approx 400ML of water (Capacity 600ml - filled to 2/3 on Sight Glass)
Feed system filled with 400ML of water, across all three tanks.
Oiler filled.
Gas Tank topped off.

Time to 60psi - 4.5 minutes 
Time to consume 400ML  (the feed water tanks- keeping water level at 2/3) - 57 minutes.
At which time my wife called me to take care of something and I shut down the engine. 
There was still the same level in the sight-glass so I would guess that if I wanted to run the
boiler all the way down to the bottom, I would have at least another 30 minutes. 
Now, to be honest, I was not running full out, so I do not know what the running time will be
when under way. The oiler was almost empty - just some sludge remaining at the top, the rest was water. 

So - now it is time to get her on the water again. 

I will post some more videos when I get her on the water soon.
Thanks for reading - more to come.Time to move on to the next project. 
I have a couple of other crafts to get serviced for running.

Regards to all,Jim








 

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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2021, 09:16:00 pm »

Jim your work on this project looks great, well done. You have encouraged me to get my Proteus engine, boiler and ABC off the shelf and give it a run. I have never run this before so spent some time setting it up and here is a video to one of the runs I did with it today on the bench. Having never seen one of these run before I am astounded by how quickly it revs and by how the boiler stays at full pressure even with the pump pumping water in, it ran for ages today. You must be really pleased with the way yours runs now. https://youtu.be/40fQpuRRTsA           
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jpdenver

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2021, 02:25:28 am »

Yep - The Proteus is rapidly becoming my favorite engine. 

Looks like you singed your fingers on the steam valve too! 
If you look at my photos, you will see that I moved the sight glass to the other endof the boiler.  I did this to be able to neaten up the cables and control wires. 
I do not know if being closer to the heat will cause any problems with the sensor. 

Hopefully my reports on setting up the ABC will save you some time. 

I look forward to seeing it in a hull! 

Regards,
Jim

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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2021, 08:13:07 am »

Jim I believe that the Mark 1 proteus boiler has the sight glass at the same end of the boiler as the burner and that for the mark 2 version the sight glass was relocated to the far end of the boiler because heat from the burner was affecting the sensor operation, not sure if the heat was causing the water in the sight glass to boil ( I have seen this happen on another boiler, it needed a heat shield to stop the problem) or if the heat was affecting the sensor itself? It will be interesting to see how yours performs with the sight glass now close to the burner, hope all goes well, Dave
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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2021, 02:53:52 pm »

Dave, 

Thanks for the heads-up on the sight-glass. 

I have some old-school asbestos sheets that I can cut to size and paint black to blend in.
These can be fitted around/behind the glass and perhaps protect it. 

To Anyone Reading - 
Does anyone know the two components of the sensor?  I assume a photo-resistor and emitter butdoes anyone know the specs - actual part numbers?

Thanks,Jim
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KNO3

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2021, 04:06:39 pm »

A simple metal shield would probably be enough to keep the water gauge from boiling. I wouldn't use asbestos at all.
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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2021, 04:25:21 pm »

Jim re the sensor spec, I can’t help you with that but wonder if there is an issue you need resolving? Hope all is ok
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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2021, 03:48:17 pm »

See Pics:
Jim

The second one is:The Good Idea Fairy
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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2021, 04:04:13 pm »

I wrote to Jerry Watson of Clevedon Steam. 
Jerry is the "Keeper of the Tribal Knowledge" pertaining to Cheddar.   
When I asked about the placement of the sensor and the Sight Glass,
Jerry wrote that the "rear" boiler busses were added in order to move
the Sight Glass and Sensors away from the heat source.  It seems the
electronics in the sensor were getting destroyed by the heat. 
  OOPS. 
Back to the shop. 
and after scraping the remains of the "Good Idea Fairy" off the toolbox,
I will move the sensor and sight glass back to the back of the boiler.   
I hope the 6-8 times I ran the boiler for a long time did not stress the Sensors to the
failure point or weaken them.   
More to come. 
Jim
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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2021, 03:10:36 pm »

I successfully moved the sight glass and water sensor back to the non-burner end of the boiler.

Managed to avoid breaking the glass.  Or distorting the o-rings beyond use.  So hopefully, all is well. 

The hardest part was draining the boiler while it was in place without upsetting everything else. 

I am still looking for information on the components of the sensor itself.  I just want to protect my
investment, and since these engines are 15 years old (but New-In-Box) I try to accumulate information on
pieces and parts as much as I can. 

I have talked with Jerry at Clevedon, and he is working on a sight-glass based sensor in the future. 
He already has the gas control unit, and this one (I understand) will be stand-alone. 

I also added some protection of the sensor unit as I moved it in order to try and insure a longer life. 

1. I was concerned about the exposure of the individual wires from the sensor as they were exposed
for about a 1/4 of an inch before they entered the plastic sheath and traveled on to the controller. 
To do this I attached the sheath-end to the side of the shield, then I coated the exposed wires and and of the
shield with some "liquid electrical tape". 

2. I added a layer of insulation between the end of the boiler and the sight glass.  I took some aluminum tape, and on
the adhesive side, put a layer of asbestos paper.  Then secured the tape (by folding over the ends) to the boiler under the
sight glass.

I fired up the boiler.  It worked flawlessly.  When I was at full steam pressure (60PSI) and had been running the engine 
for a little while, I measured the temperature of the various components with a hand-held IR Thermometer "gun". 
The boiler end (in direct line with the burner) was 315F.  The Brass parts of the sight glass were at 275F. 
The surface of the insulation was 220F.  The Shield of the sensor was at 210F.  So I consider the process a  success. 

My favorite pond is due to finally open next week.  So I will have some pics and movies available after our July 4th holiday. 
For you brits over there it is our celebration of "independence"  -   ;)   

Here are some pics. 

Thanks for following the thread. 

Regards,Jim 
Denver, CO  USA 





   
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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2021, 07:35:50 pm »

Jim looking forward to hearing how you get on once your boat is on the lake. As a matter of interest how much water are you using for your 40 min plus run times? I have taken some photos of my Cheddar ABC sensor that may or may not help you - I know nothing about the dark arts of electronics its all magic to me. If nothing else hope the phots add interest to the discussion. Dave
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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2021, 10:53:22 pm »

Dave, 

Thanks for taking the time to assist in my quest.   
You may not know the dark arts, but you can still be of great help. 

From the end with the wires, I see a number of components. Some are passive.
The Orange/tan thing is a capacitor. 
1. Can you look at it and tell me the markings? 

Next is a Black Square -
It is a "receiver" and gets light (probably infrared - invisible) from the emitter at the other end. 
2. Can you see any markings? 
3. Can you see how many leads(wires) come off the bottom of the black square. 

Next appears to be a diode this is probably to make sure that you do not hook up the sensor array with
reversed leads. 
4.  Any markings you can see?
Next is a shield that limits the light hitting the receiver to a narrow strip that sort of focuses the beam that comes thru the
glass.   

Then we have the wires that hold everything to the sight glass. 

Finally is the emitter
Again, any markings to be seen? 

All assistance will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,
Jim

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Re: Cheddar Proteus
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2021, 03:39:16 pm »

Lets expand the discussion: 
Since I have a way to refill the boiler, 
I have two additional decisions to make: 

1. How full should the boiler be for the initial part of the run? 
2. Where should I put the sensor on the sight glass?

Conditions I see needed to be taken into account are - 
- the higher I put the initial water level, the longer I can run before I start re-filling. 
- the lower I put the sensor, the shorter amount of time I have to come back to port before the water level drops below the bottom 
   of the sight glass. 
- If I use the "out of fill-water" flasher as a signal to come in, then putting sensor and the initial water level at the same place means 
  that I am only running on the fill-water. 
- If I set the sensor at the lower part of the glass and fill the boiler to the upper part of the glass, I will use the initial fill first and then run on 
   fill-water for the balance of the time. 

SO - I PUT TO THE FORUM - 

A. - What amount of headroom (AIR in TOP OF BOILER) is most efficient for steam production in an engine like the Proteus. 
B. - What other things do I need to be thinking about?
C. - (Just cause I want to know) - Can I use Steam Oil to lubricate the external points on the engine? If not what weight oil should be used?

As to B. There are the obvious - Oil in the lubricator - Room for the goop in the condenser.   
But what else are we needing to account for,   

WHAT MAKES A GOOD HEAD OF STEAM? 

I know that these may have been topics in the past, but I thought that maybe it might be a good time to revisit them
since we are also talking about using pond water as a source of fill-water, and other topics. 


Thanks for reading and participating in the discussion. 

Regards,
Happy Independence Day, (for those of you on this side of the pond)

Jim Pope
JPDenver 
Denver, Colorado USA
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